Quote from: Brad;1125559Yeah, see, that's what I don't know. Didn't Mongoose release some sort of Runequest OGL game at one point? Again, I am not entirely sure, but that post from Chaosium's presumed lawyer implies none of that stuff is actual OGL, but I was always under the impression everything Mongoose did was because they put OGL all over every book I've ever seen them publish.

Before the Legend SRD there were several MRQ1 SRDs, which did contain some Glorantha terms - basically the names (but not images) of the runes, and a few monster names like Broo, etc. These are the ones Moon Design have frequently claimed to be illegal, without ever offering evidence. It is interesting that the SRDs appeared almost as soon as Mongoose started publishing MRQ1, and only faded from view when they moved to MRQ2 and withdrew the accompanying logo licence from all the 3rd party publishers - same as they did with Traveller, presumably because they thought the OBS community content schemes served them better.

I have never heard Greg publicly say anything about the MRQ1 SRDs being invalid, and I also had a couple of short converstaions with him involving the issue. One was on a Glorantha group where I hyperbolically claimed that Glorantha was now "out there" and Greg corrected me in saying that the OGL is still a licence and users have to abide by the terms of that licence (which I expected everyone to take as a given, but he was right, of course). The other time was when I was writing my RetroQuest II clone and Mongoose gave up their RuneQuest licence, so I told Greg I'd rather have the RuenQuest name on the cover of my clone using the MRQ1 SRDs and asked "how much?". Too rich for me, but he didn't tell me "don't use it, they never had the rights to release that". I also talked to Matt about it, and he said Mongoose were within their rights to release the SRDs. Greg is gone, but Moon Design tells us how he really felt about it privately and without telling Mongoose to stop it. In the absence of a court case or out-of-court settlement, we can only speculate and draw our own conclusions.

Legend is actually based on MRQ2, a substantially different game much closer to Mythras and thus more popular than MRQ1 with 3PPs even without NuChaosium vague booking about the legality of the latter. They only sort-of-admitted they had nothing on Legend once they were called on it, immediately before that clarification Jeff was telling me:

QuoteIf you think the Legend OGL is "cast-iron", then you are fooling yourself. Heck, on the face of it, the very license used is invalid.

I wandered over to BRP forums and had this reply in a thread about an OpenBRP project (where publishers fix, reorganize the abysmal "OGL" offering Chaosium released.)

QuoteOr... you can look at the Legend material that is open (tons of it) and the open content in the new Delta Green and perhaps filter in a little open content from other open games (D6, d20, Action! System, Entropy System... the list is pretty large) and not reward a company for putting together THE WORSE OGL terms I have ever seen in the many years I've been a publisher groupy.

Don't reward stubborn adherence to "the time before"

Chaosium lives in a world built in 1980 where "IP" was king. Someone must be under the delusion that a company (that has gone bankrupt how many times now?) has something so valuable that they must protect it like gold.

Why would you do all this work for them? They obviously don't give a shit about content creators or they wouldn't have created the most obtuse "open" license model.

"but Trent, I want to support Chaosium!" - awesome. Buy*their stuff!*RQ seems to be doing well as is CoC7. They just picked up 7th sea. Chaosium needs to focus on content and they'll be great. The quality is high. They do know the traditional Freelancer - Editing Staff - Distributor - Retailer model. They are obviously steeped in the Scarcity Model and can navigate the idea that we're going to run out of RPGs on Cthulhu with little impact to their day to day.

However, as a publisher I would never a) use this bogus "OGL"***or b) enter into ANY arrangement with a group of the "old guard" painfully clinging to the old ideas like a misguided knight clings to a cheap brass goblet regarding is "as unto the True Grail."

Just make a complete game with the open content that already exists with the options that work for your setting.

You are dealing with obsessive people here. Look at how touchy they are about all their "restricted content". Does this seem like the behavior of a group of people that know what they are doing? Are confident in their works? Have any clue at all how the open gaming movement works?!?! Clearly not.

It would be in the best interest of everybody to let these people focus on what they are good at. When they get overly-emotional about someone using open content they deem illegal, we can give them hugs and fist-bumps and assure them everything is going to be ok. Kind of like the same thing we do with young children who don't understand and are probably not going to understand.

Support Chaosium by playing RQ and CoC7. Run one of their incredible campaigns. Buy their books. Be a good fan!

But I would highly recommend you stay away from this company as a publisher. You are dealing with some obviously manic people whose "old ways" are going to blow up your shit long before you realize your publishing dreams.

Just my two cents...

**Frankly, the whole idea that this is Open is insulting. I would have had more respect for Chaosium if they had just belligerently cast aspersions from the castle walls Monte Python style. It would have been more consistent.

Quote from: Vile;1125575Legend is actually based on MRQ2, a substantially different game much closer to Mythras and thus more popular than MRQ1 with 3PPs even without NuChaosium vague booking about the legality of the latter. They only sort-of-admitted they had nothing on Legend once they were called on it, immediately before that clarification Jeff was telling me:

Jeff: "But if you want to use something close to Prohibited Content, then you should probably ask myself, "would the reasonable person think this is a substantially similar mechanic?"

The legal situation is, AFAICS (all liability disclaimed)
1. Nobody owns mechanics per se, unless you manage to Patent them (like WoTC's card-tapping patent).
2. If you sign up to a contract such as a licence, you are bound by the contract terms (with very limited exceptions in common-law systems like England and most of USA). So a contract can prohibit you using game mechanics.
3. However if a standard written terms contract is deliberately vaguely written - "substantially similar mechanic" - the people who wrote the contract can't rely on their own interpretation of what the terms mean, and the court may lean towards contra proferentem - interpreting the vague terms in the (reasonable) way most favourable to the one who didn't write the terms. This varies a bit by jurisdiction, but it's pretty consistent that the creator of the standard written terms can't say "that means whatever I want it to mean" - at best if the parties are in disagreement then the court will consider what a reasonable neutral third party would think it meant.

Quote from: trechriron;1125600I wandered over to BRP forums and had this reply in a thread about an OpenBRP project (where publishers fix, reorganize the abysmal "OGL" offering Chaosium released.)

Hear hear! :cool:

Quote from: trechriron;1125600I wandered over to BRP forums and had this reply in a thread about an OpenBRP project (where publishers fix, reorganize the abysmal "OGL" offering Chaosium released.)

Yes, that was a bit of a worrying thread in the making. This disaster needs to be aborted, not fixed by a bunch of fans.

I don't hate Chaosium as 7E is my favorite version of CoC. To be hones and imo it was high time for some new rules.

Why the company is getting hate is because they tried to push their version of an OGL which is completely the antithesis of such a license. Then for some odd reason thought no one would notice. Instead of apologizing for doing the complete of what they promised told the fans to go to hell. So yeah some of us are not fans of the company. If someone in a rush to get their work published failed to read through the license they would be screwed and any writer using the BRPNONOGL is. Seeing as how Chaosium has little skill dealing with the public would blame the writer.

I still think they tried to pull a fast one and were caught. OGL means an OGL not something that protects the company interests only while screwing over those who use it. Then thinking no one would notice.

https://www.chaosium.com/brp-system-reference-document/?mc_cid=c4d00225e7&mc_eid=adcea3c29b

From what I am seeing in the SRD the following would be prohibited content

• A magic system where points are spent from a pool based on a characteristic and/or regained over time and/or the chance of casting the spell is based on skill or a characteristic.
• A magic system where points are permanently spent to gain spells based on an available pool of spells from a source.
• A system which measures standing in an organisation/society/culture/country by accruing points based on actions and/or maybe used to gain something
• Systems which measure personality traits which change based on actions and/or are tested to restrict or encourage behaviour.
• A system were fails can be re-rolled
• Any augment of abilities based on another ability be they rolled and/or as a fraction of the other ability
• Anything that symbolizes a power or group of powers obtained from a source.
• Anything that represents a person's state of mind such as sanity/despair/guilt which involves making a die roll to avoid  the loss of points from a pool and/or an effect occurs if a certain number of points are lost or gained.

It's a garbage license imo and instead of admitting they screwed up in typically Chaosium fashion double down. I honestly think they thought they could make as non-opengl gaming license as possible in their favor and somehow thought the majority of the fans would be fine and more importantly not notice.

The thread from BRP Forums on the topic:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/11615-announcing-the-basic-roleplaying-system-reference-document-and-open-game-license/page/11/#comments

My favorite response and another reason for not wanting to touch the license if I was an rpg writer

poster A: I have an honest question, why would the BRP OGL be a better option than the Legend OGL with is far less restrictive?

Poster B: Because you have BRP.

Yes because that is ample enough reason to want to get screwed over by the BRP non-ogl when one can use an existing actually OGL.

Quote from: Eldritch_Knight;1125335Okay, I know I have been out of the loop for a while, but what did Chaosium do that made them SJW's? T

You obviously haven't read any of the Call of Cthulhu products since Chaosium was possessed by NuChaosium.

Quote from: S'mon;1125603Jeff: "But if you want to use something close to Prohibited Content, then you should probably ask myself, "would the reasonable person think this is a substantially similar mechanic?"

The legal situation is, AFAICS (all liability disclaimed)
1. Nobody owns mechanics per se, unless you manage to Patent them (like WoTC's card-tapping patent).
2. If you sign up to a contract such as a licence, you are bound by the contract terms (with very limited exceptions in common-law systems like England and most of USA). So a contract can prohibit you using game mechanics.
3. However if a standard written terms contract is deliberately vaguely written - "substantially similar mechanic" - the people who wrote the contract can't rely on their own interpretation of what the terms mean, and the court may lean towards contra proferentem - interpreting the vague terms in the (reasonable) way most favourable to the one who didn't write the terms. This varies a bit by jurisdiction, but it's pretty consistent that the creator of the standard written terms can't say "that means whatever I want it to mean" - at best if the parties are in disagreement then the court will consider what a reasonable neutral third party would think it meant.

This thing is only useful to people who are really keen to get the BRP logo on a product and don't really give shit about producing anything decent or usable . They also get to cut and paste the rules in the SRD rather than rewriting it.

Quote from: Gagarth;1125965You obviously haven't read any of the Call of Cthulhu products since Chaosium was possessed by NuChaosium.

You will have to be more specific on what in their products you are referring to. I backed their Kickstarter (so I have all the products released through that), picked up Pulp Cthulhu, and I also have the GenCon 2015 release of Cthulhu Dark Ages. (I also have a variety of older products) I haven't used the books much since they arrived 4 years ago.

Quote from: Eldritch_Knight;1125989You will have to be more specific on what in their products you are referring to. I backed their Kickstarter (so I have all the products released through that), picked up Pulp Cthulhu, and I also have the GenCon 2015 release of Cthulhu Dark Ages. (I also have a variety of older products) I haven't used the books much since they arrived 4 years ago.

Their reprint of Chris Spivey's shitfest Harlem Unbound is one release worth mentioning. Chris Spivey hates Lovecraft but wants to make money off his name. The man-by-DNA Stephanie McAlea also hates Lovecraft so much he posted a tasteless poem on the author's day of death in the Facebook Call of Cthulhu group. It took quite awhile before Chaosium removed it since they secretely clapped their little manlet hands. Also I have noticed the influx of aussies in all things Call of Cthulhu. Their genes are tainted and nothing good will ever come out of it. They can't even make proper beer.

While I'm ranting, I would like to measure Mike Mason's skull. He has a very odd headshape. So odd I wonder if there's actually the average man's brain mass hidden beneath that dome. There was a villain in Hulk who had a weirdly shaped head and big eyes, Missing Link. Mike Mason reminds me of him, sans the muscles and superpowers.

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1126171... The man-by-DNA Stephanie McAlea also hates Lovecraft so much he...

 Also I have noticed the influx of aussies in all things Call of Cthulhu. Their genes are tainted and nothing good will ever come out of it. They can't even make proper beer. ...

Let me be direct here.

1) Your transphobia is cute, but tired. If you could tone down your self-hatred and secret desire to be woman just a little bit? Maybe to the point you don't have to go out of your way to hate on trans people? That would make you... mature? Believable. Yes! believable. Also, stop hating yourself girl. HRT treatments are much cheaper now and the surgery techniques are spot-on accurate. I've seen a whole swath of nuVaginas and you CANNOT tell the difference. You just let go of your misassigned gender, stop pretending like your a macho "man" and jump in! Only about half the country will judge you. And because you obviously live in a conservative-far-right echo chamber, you already have all the skills to join a liberal-far-left echo chamber! Seriously honey - you need to let go.

2) Their genes are tainted? It's funny you should mention tainted. I was imagining what you look like while saying these words out loud standing in front of me. You know what I imagined? A taint! You know that part in between the front parts and butthole? I imagined a giant taint just vomiting haterade all over the floor trying to get the words out and seem intelligible. I just wanted to hand that poor frothing taint a towel and give 'em a big hug. I was like bouncing up and down in my office chair screaming "you can do it little taint!"

So. There it is little taint. I'm pulling for you. I know you can do this. Just give up your faux-machismo for a real vagina and dive in like the hot little girl you know you can be. I believe in you!

I made a new post on BRP Central. This one might get me banned but I was more direct and... less offensive? I didn't call anyone names!

QuoteI had this long response to replace my offensive post. Then I thought "why?" Here are a few bullet points.

• I wouldn't touch this license with a bacon-wrapped 10 ft pole. Even if dipped in honey.
• Using the term "open" and making any inference that it is related to the OGL is insulting to the broader Open Content community. It's misleading and demonstrates a much stronger desire to exploit that community as a marketing gimmick vs. contribute to it. Might I suggest "BRP-Derived RPG License"? Clearer, makes more sense... maybe a tad more honest? Doesn't use the word "open"?
• This is NOT an open license. For the fans / publishers in the cheap seats - this. license. is. NOT. OPEN. This is the polar opposite of what OPEN is supposed to mean. I get "open" is right there in the name. But French Toast is not from France and that bouncer is not named "Tiny Tom" because he's actually... tiny.
• Based on the responses by Chaosium staff in this thread I've gleaned a few things; a) they don't trust their fans or the broader publishing community, b) they don't like us - at all, c) they have no concept of the esprit de corps of the Open Content movement, and d) they don't appear very self-aware of how an Open License is supposed to support*the "parent" publisher. I was going to drop some knowledge in the thread and then thought - "who would heed it?"
  

Of course, it's not too late to undo it. Maybe consult an OGL expert? Rethink the whole idea of how restricted-use licensing doesn't do anything to build your market or increase your bottom line? Nah. Forget I mentioned it.

Have fun storming the castle!

Quote from: trechriron;1126194I made a new post on BRP Central. This one might get me banned but I was more direct and... less offensive? I didn't call anyone names!

Only the mods are allowed to be rude there.

Oh how I miss the early carefree days of the board Trifletraxor set up because he was banned from Mongoose for posting a picture of someone milking a Morocanth herd cow, when Chaosium was a fading light and Moon Design were safely walled off in Glorantha Grognardland where no-one had ever heard of them.