One of the reasons I always preferred Mage to Vampire or Werewolf was that, until 3rd edition dragged it in, the setting was "End Times" free (also, until 3rd Edition decided to change the fundamental nature of avatars to be separate entities that happened to ride around in a human host, you were playing a human who knew magic, not an undead or nature spirit with alien drives).

One of my favorite things about the 20th Anniversary Editions for all three was how they essentially chalked up the whole End Times element to turn of the millennium hysteria akin to Y2K and that everyone who'd been screaming about it is just kinda embarrassed about the whole thing.

The sixth maelstrom died down eventually so all the wraiths possessing corpses returned to the underworld and the associated avatar storm and increased paradox died down with it. The Red Star faded away, just another misread portent (perhaps associated with the rise and now disappearance of the Imbued Hunters), and more of the elder Ravnos survived than intially believed.

Basically all the 20th Anniversary lines seemed to aiming for a more 1-2e status quo, but with cleaned up rules (I'll say again, they made the Mage magic system functional without navel-gazing GM intervention) and updated technology.

Mage does include options for running the game as if the 3e End Time dying magic metaplot was still in effect, but since even the 3e writers at the time couldn't keep that up and slowly introduced ways around all the dying magic elements before it was all over. The other settings didn't have nearly so great a change in mechanics between 1-2e and 3e though so they didn't need as many alternate rules.

For people who like Vampire but not the mechanics, what's the opinion on using GURPS? I got Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf GURPS sourcebooks for like $1 each years ago at Half Priced Books, never even cracked them open.

Quote from: Itachi;1125373Color me puzzled with the "nothing to do" too. There are a dozen rival clans whose members are vying for control inside the clan and for the Camarilla as a whole. As a political intrigue game that seems more than enough to me. And going further, I think having clear antagonists actually detracts from that setup, because it sacrifices the nuance that the clash of clans philosophies and outlooks bring in lieu of a simplistic "fight the evil guys" view.

And 5th edition is the best one for me, due to the streamlined rules and "back to the basics" setting.

That's old World of Darkness.  (And I guess new new World of Darkness, since 5e brought the originals back.)  New World of Darkness doesn't have the Camarilla, only has like five clans, and they are as written in the books only vaguely not possessed with brotherly love for one another.  Politicking and conflict are both heavily reduced in nWoD vampire.

Old Mage: You're fighting over reality itself!  (and probably losing)
New Mage: There's some Atlantean mages trapped in another universe and they maybe don't like you much, but nobody can see or communicate with them so who can say?

Old Werewolf: EVERYTHING'S FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED
New Werewolf: You're the janitors of the spirit world, don't let spirits be naughty.  And some other werewolves you've never met think you suck for reasons and if you ever meet one they'll probably fight.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125385One of the reasons I always preferred Mage to Vampire or Werewolf was that, until 3rd edition dragged it in, the setting was "End Times" free (also, until 3rd Edition decided to change the fundamental nature of avatars to be separate entities that happened to ride around in a human host, you were playing a human who knew magic, not an undead or nature spirit with alien drives).

One of my favorite things about the 20th Anniversary Editions for all three was how they essentially chalked up the whole End Times element to turn of the millennium hysteria akin to Y2K and that everyone who'd been screaming about it is just kinda embarrassed about the whole thing.

The sixth maelstrom died down eventually so all the wraiths possessing corpses returned to the underworld and the associated avatar storm and increased paradox died down with it. The Red Star faded away, just another misread portent (perhaps associated with the rise and now disappearance of the Imbued Hunters), and more of the elder Ravnos survived than intially believed.

The end times were present since the inception of the games. The metaplot ramped up in the late 90s because the RPG market was crashing at the time and the marketing department thought a metaplot and new editions would boost sales.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125385Basically all the 20th Anniversary lines seemed to aiming for a more 1-2e status quo, but with cleaned up rules

The 5e is continuing the metaplot. Among other things, V5 effectively disbanded the Camarilla and Sabbat, isolated the cities from one another, dramatically altered how superpowers work, and generally made changes almost as extreme as Vampire: The Requiem.

This in preparation for Paradox's video game adaptation, Bloodlines 2.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125385(I'll say again, they made the Mage magic system functional without navel-gazing GM intervention)

So did Mage: The Awakening and Ars Magica.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125385and updated technology.

"Updated technology"? That sounds dated as hell. I get the impression that most fans are dudes in their forties.

Once upon a time I used to be a rabid consumer of World of Darkness material. Now the setting does not interest me. It strikes me as dated, poorly designed, and trapped in a very tiny box. Reading the heartbreakers like Everlasting, WitchCraft, etc feels like a breath of fresh air in a sealed bunker.

So when I learned that Paradox killed off the Camarilla and replaced them with a new set of factions in their upcoming video game, I was not surprised. I am really hoping that one day Paradox kills the tabletop entirely, because I am sick to death of it monopolizing the urban fantasy tabletop market.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125385Mage does include options for running the game as if the 3e End Time dying magic metaplot was still in effect, but since even the 3e writers at the time couldn't keep that up and slowly introduced ways around all the dying magic elements before it was all over. The other settings didn't have nearly so great a change in mechanics between 1-2e and 3e though so they didn't need as many alternate rules.

Quote from: Valatar;1125388That's old World of Darkness.  (And I guess new new World of Darkness, since 5e brought the originals back.)  New World of Darkness doesn't have the Camarilla, only has like five clans, and they are as written in the books only vaguely not possessed with brotherly love for one another.  Politicking and conflict are both heavily reduced in nWoD vampire.

Old Mage: You're fighting over reality itself!  (and probably losing)
New Mage: There's some Atlantean mages trapped in another universe and they maybe don't like you much, but nobody can see or communicate with them so who can say?

Old Werewolf: EVERYTHING'S FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED
New Werewolf: You're the janitors of the spirit world, don't let spirits be naughty.  And some other werewolves you've never met think you suck for reasons and if you ever meet one they'll probably fight.

Chronicles of Darkness/New World of Darkness/whatever has been continuously published for around sixteen years now. World of Darkness went on hiatus after thirteen years.

Saying that Chronicles of Darkness has a less detailed or interesting setting than World of Darkness is just plain ignorant. Have you ever read any of the recently published books?

World of Darkness fans were butthurt their favorite game went on hiatus, got irrationally angry that a new game (one made to attract new audiences at the behest of the marketing team because of the early 2000s market crunch) was not a carbon copy of the previous one, and sixteen years later they still cannot get over it even though the hiatus has been over for eight or nine years now.

I do not like either iteration of the IP, but I am sick to death of this constant nonsense. If you are going to make pronouncements about sixteen year old games, then it would probably make sense to actually read them and make sure you are not talking out of your ass.

Your going to be shocked, but both mages are the same thing.  Don't believe me, then go read Imperial Mysteries which is a handy supplement for running archmage games in Mage: the Awakening.  Basically the world are what all mages before had made from their will.  So I am both right and wrong.  It all depends who just became a enarch, or oracle.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125395The end times were present since the inception of the games.

My point was that it was NOT present in Mage from the inception of the game. The dying magic/world of apathy metaplot was introduced only in Revised/3e because they wanted to bring Mage more into line with the other main game lines. Prior to that there was the Ascension War, but that was an active struggle with the goal of making the world into a better place (for each faction's definition of better).

3e declared "War's over. Everyone lost. The humans no longer believe in a better tomorrow so all magic is dying. Now play street level misery porn like the rest of the our game lines do... no more running battles between space zeppelins and Void Engineer dreadnaughts in Etherspace or journeys into the Hollow Earth for you."

QuoteSo did Mage: The Awakening and Ars Magica.

No it didn't, Awakening picked one paradigm (some weird variation on Gnosticism), dumbed that down and declared it the sole objective reality way that magic worked in the NWOD setting. Then they wrote a list of D&D style spells for what you could accomplish with each sphere and dropped massive penalties you for not using them and instead doing freeform magic as existed in Ascension.

If your preferred magic system was instead the Chakravati's union with god-forms, or the Celestial Chorus' prayers of faith, or the Akashic Brotherhood's Do, or the Son's of Ether's weird science, or the Virtual Adept's reality hacking, or the Indigenous shamanism of the Dreamspeakers or the Ecstatic's expanded awareness through altered states of consciousness, you were told... Nope, all those are wrong, they're all just misinterpretations of Ancient Atlantean magic which is basically warmed over Gnosticism that the evil false gods (i.e. the Exarchs) are hiding the truth from the world to hold onto their own personal power.

There's a reason most longtime Ascension fans I'm aware of thought Awakening was a burning sack of dog shit (take all the contempt here for 4E D&D and double it and you might come close to how the Ascension crowd in my area felt about Awakening); you could have squeezed its entire metaphysical nuances of Awakening into a single Ascension Tradition; hell, there's more metaphysical depth in a single House of Ascension's Order or Hermes than in all of Awakening put together.

20th Anniversary Edition was able to maintain the freeform magic system and rich lore of the paradigms while also making the system clearer and more functional.

Quote from: Brad;1125387For people who like Vampire but not the mechanics, what's the opinion on using GURPS? I got Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf GURPS sourcebooks for like $1 each years ago at Half Priced Books, never even cracked them open.

You could totally use GURPS. In fact you could use any system you're comfortable with. The real draw for Vampire is the metaplot/cosmology - which can be tuned up/down to your tastes. The goal should be to use the system that emphasizes the aspects you wanna dive into.

Case in point:

I've used elements of Vampire in: D&D 3e, Marvel Super Heroes, Savage Worlds, even Cyberpunk 2020. While the Storyteller system (of ANY edition) is hardly perfect, I find the vast majority of the rancor associated with Vampire has more to do with the fandom and the publishers/creators more than the game itself.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1125424Your going to be shocked, but both mages are the same thing.  Don't believe me, then go read Imperial Mysteries which is a handy supplement for running archmage games in Mage: the Awakening.  Basically the world are what all mages before had made from their will.  So I am both right and wrong.  It all depends who just became a enarch, or oracle.

To the point that the book recycled the phrase "Ascension War" to refer to the archmasters' global time traveling reality editing war, which was seemingly copied from Nephilim's Agartha end-game. But it's slightly more complex than how you said it. In Ascension, paradigm was a lie and as your Arete increased you steadily abandoned your paradigm. (Ironically, but not unexpectedly, most fans ignore this.) In Awakening, the opposite is true: reality is a lie and as your Gnosis increased you could impose your personal paradigm on it.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125427My point was that it was NOT present in Mage from the inception of the game. The dying magic/world of apathy metaplot was introduced only in Revised/3e because they wanted to bring Mage more into line with the other main game lines. Prior to that there was the Ascension War, but that was an active struggle with the goal of making the world into a better place (for each faction's definition of better).

3e declared "War's over. Everyone lost. The humans no longer believe in a better tomorrow so all magic is dying. Now play street level misery porn like the rest of the our game lines do... no more running battles between space zeppelins and Void Engineer dreadnaughts in Etherspace or journeys into the Hollow Earth for you."

This was done at the behest of the marketing department. The books weren't selling, supposedly because of the outer worlds setting, so they used the metaplot to destroy that in an attempt to make fans buy new books. That's just business.

Rather than getting butthurt over the marketing department's mandate, why not play a different game or makeup your own? In my opinion, the key problem with the game is that Earth existed at all. Seems to me that fans only played because they wanted crazy fantasy adventures but were too lazy to play a game better suited for it like Rifts or Shadowrun.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125427No it didn't, Awakening picked one paradigm (some weird variation on Gnosticism), dumbed that down and declared it the sole objective reality way that magic worked in the NWOD setting.

Ascension's paradigm mechanic was described in its own lore as a lie that mages outgrew as their Arete increased. Most fans seem to ignore this, but it's a cornerstone of the lore. Seems hypocritical to me to love a game so much that you guys sent the developer of 3e so many death threats he was terrified of opening his inbox for years, yet you don't even know the inner working of your favorite game's own lore.

As I said before, Awakening took the opposite approach. It took years for the writers to pull their shit together, but eventually they included rules for paradigms in one book and added back the Ascension War on steroids. This time the paradigm wasn't discarded as your Gnosis increased, but the opposite: the goal of every archmaster was to win the Ascension War and impose their paradigm, their own personal hell, onto everyone else like the assholes that all mages really are in their heart of hearts.

The most sympathetic archmasters were the "Aswadim", because they were at least honest about being assholes who wanted to turn the universe into hell by making everybody's self-contradictory wishes come true.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125427Then they wrote a list of D&D style spells for what you could accomplish with each sphere and dropped massive penalties you for not using them and instead doing freeform magic as existed in Ascension.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the magic system worked. It was poorly edited and proofread, sure, but that wasn't the writers' intention.

The spells were provided as examples of what mages could create using the freeform mechanic. Whether you received penalties or not depended on whether the spell was cast as an instant action or a ritual. When casting a spell as an instant action, you took a penalty based on how complex the spell was. When casting as a ritual, you instead had a success quota that you needed to achieve through an extended action. This applied to the example spells too. All magic but the most simple was intentionally designed to be very difficult to use unless you cast it as a ritual. Everybody who has actually played the game knows this.

Quote from: Chris24601;1125427If your preferred magic system was instead the Chakravati's union with god-forms, or the Celestial Chorus' prayers of faith, or the Akashic Brotherhood's Do, or the Son's of Ether's weird science, or the Virtual Adept's reality hacking, or the Indigenous shamanism of the Dreamspeakers or the Ecstatic's expanded awareness through altered states of consciousness, you were told... Nope, all those are wrong, they're all just misinterpretations of Ancient Atlantean magic which is basically warmed over Gnosticism that the evil false gods (i.e. the Exarchs) are hiding the truth from the world to hold onto their own personal power.

As I just explained, you are deeply misinformed. Reading the books would clear this up pretty quick.

Specifically, Imperial Mysteries includes the rules for the Ascension War and Mage Chronicler's Guide includes the rules for paradigm. Read them and educate yourself.

Did you know that after Mage 3e released, developer Jess Heinig received hundreds of death threats by email? He was terrified of opening his inbox for years. Shit like that, combined with the irrational ignorant hate of Awakening is a large part of why I despise the toxic WW fandom.

Quote from: tenbones;1125442The real draw for Vampire is the metaplot/cosmology - which can be tuned up/down to your tastes.

I don't see the appeal. Years ago I used to think it was the best setting since sliced bread, but only because it was the only setting I was familiar with. As I read Taliesin Meets the Vampires, watched Maven of the Eventide, etc, I gained a much better appreciation of vampire fiction and thus find WW's game to be sorely lacking.

The toxic fandom only cares about the convoluted metaplot/cosmology and become hugely butthurt when things don't go their way. I don't want to touch that shit with a ten-foot pole.

Quote from: tenbones;1125442I find the vast majority of the rancor associated with Vampire has more to do with the fandom and the publishers/creators more than the game itself.

While true, the cosmology is far from ideal. I once tried to recreate it using Feed's strain mechanic, and it quickly became apparent that the clans/bloodlines are extremely superficial differences. In both Masquerade and Requiem, the clans/bloodlines having to follow the same pseudo-Ricean model is more detrimental than helpful. I've found that it's more interesting to dispense with that and give the bloodlines powers and limitations as appropriate for their concept rather than constantly recycling the pseudo-Ricean mold.

For example, I find the artsy and crazy vamps more interesting if they drain not the blood but the beauty and sanity from their victims, respectively. Feels far more thematic.

Take vampire cannibalism or "diablerie," for another example. This is based on Rice's Queen of the Damned, but the implementation is far less interesting in my opinion. Aside from recycling an unrelated archaic word for witchcraft in typical annoying WW fashion, Rice depicted it as literal cannibalism. You acquire a vampire's soul by eating their heart and/or brain. They can share power by exchanging blood, but this isn't the same thing.

As such, I prefer a Ricean mechanic. A variation was used by Everlasting in 1997. Everlasting introduced blood-potency years before Requiem did. All vampires have a blood-potency statistic ranging from 1 to 12. A vampire sacrifices 1 BP to create a new vampire, who starts with 1/2 the BP of their maker at no extra cost (vampires with 1 BP cannot create new vampires). A vampire may steal the BP of another vampire by drinking their blood, but this only works if the thief has lower BP: once the BP of the two is equalized, no further theft is possible. This doesn't kill the vampire being drained.

But since my preferred vampire game is Feed, this is irrelevant since it doesn't include any rules for stealing power from other vampires. It doesn't need those rules because it's not made for munchkins. The generation/potency mechanic is munchkin fodder that deserves to die in a fire.

Quote from: Itachi;1125373Color me puzzled with the "nothing to do" too. There are a dozen rival clans whose members are vying for control inside the clan and for the Camarilla as a whole. As a political intrigue game that seems more than enough to me. And going further, I think having clear antagonists actually detracts from that setup, because it sacrifices the nuance that the clash of clans philosophies and outlooks bring in lieu of a simplistic "fight the evil guys" view.

And 5th edition is the best one for me, due to the streamlined rules and "back to the basics" setting.

5e's mechanics were shit and its setting was even worse.

Any edition of World of Darkness that upholds the metaplot and directly continues it forfeits the right to make the "back to basics" claim.

Go for V20 or New World of Darkness 1st Edition.

Fuck V5 or any of that God-Machine/Chronicles of Darkness garbage.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;11255915e's mechanics were shit and its setting was even worse.

Any edition of World of Darkness that upholds the metaplot and directly continues it forfeits the right to make the "back to basics" claim.

Go for V20 or New World of Darkness 1st Edition.

Fuck V5 or any of that God-Machine/Chronicles of Darkness garbage.

Or you could go for a different game entirely. World of Darkness, as a setting, attracts a hugely toxic fandom. There is something fundamentally wrong with its writing that brings out the worst in the tabletop community. Just look at all the people butthurt about the edition wars. A sane person would just find another game or make their own. This fandom throws temper tantrums and sends death threats.

If that's not a dealbreaker, then you should knows the games are made by and for an audience who thinks all republicans are born evil.

Nevermind that the Camarilla/Invictus are basically republicans, the Garou want to destroy all civilization, the Mages want to turn Earth into their high school clique's flavor of fascist hellscape, etc.

Hunter: The Vigil includes a group of hunters who are idle rich folks who hunt monsters for sport. That makes them less morally reprehensible than most of the vampires, werewolves, and mages. The overwhelming majority of vamps, wolves, mages, etc in either iteration of the IP are complete assholes. The Ur-Atha werewolves and Khaibit vampires are probably the least reprehensible, since their shtick is basically MIB.

WoD has a few interesting ideas here and there. IMO, most of it deserves to die in a fire.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125664Or you could go for a different game entirely. World of Darkness, as a setting, attracts a hugely toxic fandom. There is something fundamentally wrong with its writing that brings out the worst in the tabletop community. Just look at all the people butthurt about the edition wars. A sane person would just find another game or make their own. This fandom throws temper tantrums and sends death threats.

If that's not a dealbreaker, then you should knows the games are made by and for an audience who thinks all republicans are born evil.

Nevermind that the Camarilla/Invictus are basically republicans, the Garou want to destroy all civilization, the Mages want to turn Earth into their high school clique's flavor of fascist hellscape, etc.

Hunter: The Vigil includes a group of hunters who are idle rich folks who hunt monsters for sport. That makes them less morally reprehensible than most of the vampires, werewolves, and mages. The overwhelming majority of vamps, wolves, mages, etc in either iteration of the IP are complete assholes. The Ur-Atha werewolves and Khaibit vampires are probably the least reprehensible, since their shtick is basically MIB.

WoD has a few interesting ideas here and there. IMO, most of it deserves to die in a fire.

Please stop with that "you could play another game entirely" bullshit. I know you're trying to help and you mean well, but there's a better way to go about it.

Even if you didn't mean it that way, the rhetoric you're giving is just a variant of the "Some Other Game" cop-out the toxic WoD fanbase likes to spew. Besides, I'm a guy who hates the very concept of dogmatic morality and moral traditionalism. I don't give a fuck if WoD is "problematic" or "edgy". That's what I like about it.

I will NOT play "Some Other Game" because then the Goths and Punks win. If you want to fight back, playing "Some Other Game" is NOT the way to do it. You're just giving them what they want.

The best way to hurt that toxic fandom is to run World of Darkness in a way that is completely antithetical to their punk culture values. Katanas, violent edgy action, anime, anti-Goth and anti-Punk sentiments, pro-Metal and pro-Weeb sentiments, and all sorts of other problematic and sadistic elements that would drive your average Onyx Path Forums user to do the world a favor and join the 41%.

It's very much an exercise in cultural and political sadism. You take the sacred cows of the WoD fanbase and you slaughter said sacred cows in the most cruel and inhumane way possible, and you let them know it. They hate that more than anything and there is nothing they can do about it. Unless Onyx Path sends death squads to your game table, then they will be powerless to stop you from making World of Darkness Great Again.

Goths and Punks Fuck Off! Fuck The Punk Subculture!

I will not play "Some Other Game" and I will play World of Darkness in a modified form. Rule Zero exists for a reason.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1125675Please stop with that "you could play another game entirely" bullshit. I know you're trying to help and you mean well, but there's a better way to go about it.

Even if you didn't mean it that way, the rhetoric you're giving is just a variant of the "Some Other Game" cop-out the toxic WoD fanbase likes to spew. Besides, I'm a guy who hates the very concept of dogmatic morality and moral traditionalism. I don't give a fuck if WoD is "problematic" or "edgy". That's what I like about it.

I will NOT play "Some Other Game" because then the Goths and Punks win. If you want to fight back, playing "Some Other Game" is NOT the way to do it. You're just giving them what they want.

The best way to hurt that toxic fandom is to run World of Darkness in a way that is completely antithetical to their punk culture values. Katanas, violent edgy action, anime, anti-Goth and anti-Punk sentiments, pro-Metal and pro-Weeb sentiments, and all sorts of other problematic and sadistic elements that would drive your average Onyx Path Forums user to do the world a favor and join the 41%.

It's very much an exercise in cultural and political sadism. You take the sacred cows of the WoD fanbase and you slaughter said sacred cows in the most cruel and inhumane way possible, and you let them know it. They hate that more than anything and there is nothing they can do about it. Unless Onyx Path sends death squads to your game table, then they will be powerless to stop you from making World of Darkness Great Again.

Goths and Punks Fuck Off! Fuck The Punk Subculture!

I will not play "Some Other Game" and I will play World of Darkness in a modified form. Rule Zero exists for a reason.

Way to misunderstand me. It isn't the fact that PCs are assholes that disgusts me. I'm disgusted that the toxic fandom and writers totally buy into it without realizing the immorality or contradictions in their own world views (e.g. supporting the Camarilla while demonizing republicans). I don't want to support the company by buying their products. That won't make them go away or solve the other problems I have. Even if all those toxic fans and writers hopped in a spaceship and left Earth forever, I still wouldn't want to play the game. I don't like it because it's a fucking straight-jacket.

I want to play other campaign settings than the one or two that WW fandom has been limited to. I want to invent my own settings where werewolves aren't hereditary, vampires don't drink blood, mages aren't fighting ascension wars, where the superpowers aren't arranged into arbitrary hierarchical ladders of filler powers, where the factions aren't ethnic stereotypes or high school cliques, yadda yadda.

I don't like the rules. I don't like the setting. I don't like the fandom.

In my opinion, the best way to deal with the toxic WW fandom is to steal their market share and audience. Make new games that have better rules and settings to displace them. Make a retroclone. Make a WoD-killer.

Nightlife, Invisible War, Nephilim, Dresden Files, The Everlasting, Nightbane, WitchCraft, Actual Fucking Monsters, Urban Shadows, Monsterhearts, Liminal, Dead Inside, Lost Souls, Feed, Opening the Dark, Night Shift, etc. There is no shortage of alternative games that deserve more attention.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1125675I will NOT play "Some Other Game" because then the Goths and Punks win. If you want to fight back, playing "Some Other Game" is NOT the way to do it. You're just giving them what they want.

The best way to hurt that toxic fandom is to run World of Darkness in a way that is completely antithetical to their punk culture values. Katanas, violent edgy action, anime, anti-Goth and anti-Punk sentiments, pro-Metal and pro-Weeb sentiments, and all sorts of other problematic and sadistic elements that would drive your average Onyx Path Forums user to do the world a favor and join the 41%.

It's very much an exercise in cultural and political sadism. You take the sacred cows of the WoD fanbase and you slaughter said sacred cows in the most cruel and inhumane way possible, and you let them know it. They hate that more than anything and there is nothing they can do about it. Unless Onyx Path sends death squads to your game table, then they will be powerless to stop you from making World of Darkness Great Again.

How can you make WOD "great again" according to your aesthetic? Was Vampire ever NOT gothic and punk?

Quote from: RF Victor;1125826How can you make WOD "great again" according to your aesthetic? Was Vampire ever NOT gothic and punk?

It certainly claimed to be, but that was only ever pretentious bullshit. Vampire is about tricking people into thinking they are being radical and rebellious by buying into capitalist consumerism, then further brainwashing them into thinking your product is better than sliced bread.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125809Nightlife, Invisible War, Nephilim, Dresden Files, The Everlasting, Nightbane, WitchCraft, Actual Fucking Monsters, Urban Shadows, Monsterhearts, Liminal, Dead Inside, Lost Souls, Feed, Opening the Dark, Night Shift, etc. There is no shortage of alternative games that deserve more attention.

Those games all fucking suck and are worse than WoD, and Monsterhearts is the absolute worst of the lot. That game is just pretentious hipster punk tranny storygame garbage.

Fuck that "Make your own original work" puritan redneck bullshit.

Besides, I don't give WW my money and I'm all in favor of killing the sacred cows of their fandom.

You're just trying to complain about a game you don't like.

I'm fighting a fucking war that I intend to win.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125828It certainly claimed to be, but that was only ever pretentious bullshit.

So, basically goth and punk?

Goth and Punk are the epitome of pretentiousness.