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Sword-and-Planet / Sword-and-Sorcery

Started by Marchand, March 22, 2020, 07:36:22 AM

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chirine ba kal

#15
March 23, 2020, 01:11:55 PM
Quote from: Omega;1124802Id class Tekumel as science-fantasy. Its got elements of both but is obviously neither S&S or S&P.

I can get behind this.

Bren

#16
March 23, 2020, 02:47:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1124842I'm sorry; I wasn't clear. I mentioned radium weapons as an example of the kind of 'super-science' technology that was a part of S&P. I'll be more specific in future comments.
Don't sweat it. It was a nit picky comment not a real criticism. Plus there was always the chance my memory was wrong. I think I remember reading somewhere that old age can do that...though I can't remember when or where I read that. :D
Currently running: Runequest in Glorantha + Call of Cthulhu   Currently playing: D&D 5E + RQ
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Omega

#17
March 23, 2020, 03:36:10 PM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1124780I really like the distinction of a civilized man in a savage land. That rings true to me. It's usually like Star Trek with the people going from planet to planet and interacting with the people's... except usually the protagonist is stranded and needs to find a way to impose order and learn about the alien place he's landed. Usually there is also some level of commonality discovered (maybe with a woman) that adds a human touch to the alien and makes the protagonist transcend the differences between the two sides.

Not quite. In alot of the Planet books the hero tended to go native rather than "civilize" the natives. This was pretty common. Sometimes out of necessity as its the only way to survive. Other times because the native way of life resonates with the protagonist. Star Trek is not a Planet series, its more a "wandering hero/party" sort of tale. Which is another popular genre that also has seen its fair share of hybrids.

Keep in mond that, as with all terms, over the years people have blurred the meaning, sometimes deliberately. Sometimes for a fast buck, sometimes simply that they did not understand the term, and sometimes because they take the tern and stretch it to mean "Everything on Earth"

Shawn Driscoll

#18
March 24, 2020, 12:48:41 AM
Quote from: Marchand;1124751So what does "sword and planet" mean to you? Especially as distinct from "sword and sorcery"?

It means Traveller, coming from the Space Viking novel where Sword Worlds are a thing.

Crawford Tillinghast

#19
March 24, 2020, 09:44:55 AM
To me the difference is in tone:

John Carter discovers a lost city:  "This is the city of wherever, abandoned when the canals were clogged beyond repair."

Conan discovers a lost city:  "Where are the royal tombs and treasury?"

GeekyBugle

#20
March 30, 2020, 05:26:49 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1124765SNIP

I would generally classify it as such:

Sword and Planet: A civilized man in a savage world
Sword and Sorcery: A savage man in a civilized world

If we do agree that John Carter IS Sword & Planet then the trope is inverted, since Mars is a decadent world but with tech vastly superior and very much still civilized. Making John (by comparison) a Savage man in a civilized world.

Same goes for Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon, Savage (by comparison) men in civilized worlds.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

Premier

#21
April 01, 2020, 03:38:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1125274If we do agree that John Carter IS Sword & Planet then the trope is inverted, since Mars is a decadent world but with tech vastly superior and very much still civilized. Making John (by comparison) a Savage man in a civilized world.

Only technologically. John Carter is a white man from Western Civilization, while the Martians represent exotic and complex but still non-white and thus inferior coloured civilisations, so Carter IS the civilised one among the savages.
Obvious troll is obvious. RIP, Bill.

hedgehobbit

#22
April 01, 2020, 05:12:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1125274If we do agree that John Carter IS Sword & Planet then the trope is inverted, since Mars is a decadent world but with tech vastly superior and very much still civilized. Making John (by comparison) a Savage man in a civilized world.
When I said "civilized man", I meant a man from (at that point) modern, civilized Earth, not that he was more technologically advanced than those he met.

WillInNewHaven

#23
April 01, 2020, 07:04:44 PM
In relation to gaming, Sword & Planet has a recurring theme that gaming rarely addresses: the Princess. Of course, there is an aversion to "rescue the princess and treat her as a prize in the game." Even a Neanderthal such as I think that's sexist. However, gaming didn't much like romance right from the beginning. Or at least game designers didn't.

SavageSchemer

#24
April 01, 2020, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1125421In relation to gaming, Sword & Planet has a recurring theme that gaming rarely addresses: the Princess. Of course, there is an aversion to "rescue the princess and treat her as a prize in the game." Even a Neanderthal such as I think that's sexist. However, gaming didn't much like romance right from the beginning. Or at least game designers didn't.

With a wife and a daughter who jumped into playing after we watched John Carter of Mars, Martian princesses occur pretty regularly in my games. They just aren't damsels in distress.
The more clichéd my group plays their characters, the better. I don't want Deep Drama™ and Real Acting™ in the precious few hours away from my family and job. I want cheap thrills, constant action, involved-but-not-super-complex plots, and cheesy but lovable characters.
From "Play worlds, not rules"

hedgehobbit

#25
April 02, 2020, 09:14:13 AM Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 09:54:52 AM by hedgehobbit
Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1125421In relation to gaming, Sword & Planet has a recurring theme that gaming rarely addresses: the Princess. Of course, there is an aversion to "rescue the princess and treat her as a prize in the game." Even a Neanderthal such as I think that's sexist. However, gaming didn't much like romance right from the beginning. Or at least game designers didn't.
Romance generally doesn't work in RPGs because there is a group of players and it can get creepy fast watching it.

As far as princesses go, I play with my daughters and they have no issues whatsoever with a princess needing to be rescued or a princess falling in love with her rescuer. The idea that it is bad to have a damsel in distress is something women need to be taught (i.e. brainwashed into believing).

WillInNewHaven

#26
April 02, 2020, 11:14:15 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125438Romance generally doesn't work in RPGs because there is a group of players and it can get creepy fast watching it.

As far as princesses go, I play with my daughters and they have no issues whatsoever with a princess needing to be rescued or a princess falling in love with her rescuer. The idea that it is bad to have a damsel in distress is something women need to be taught (i.e. brainwashed into believing).

Having damsels only in distress, having that be their only function, is certainly boring and stupid, all political correctness aside. Having that be the case in one situation isn't a problem at all.

Omega

#27
April 02, 2020, 01:38:30 PM
Quote from: Premier;1125408Only technologically. John Carter is a white man from Western Civilization, while the Martians represent exotic and complex but still non-white and thus inferior coloured civilisations, so Carter IS the civilised one among the savages.

Then you have never read the Barsoom series at all and are just parroting the usual SJW idiocy.

GeekyBugle

#28
April 05, 2020, 03:43:10 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125416When I said "civilized man", I meant a man from (at that point) modern, civilized Earth, not that he was more technologically advanced than those he met.

Still  at least just as civilized as him. So no savage world.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

#29
April 05, 2020, 03:48:14 AM
Quote from: Omega;1125448Then you have never read the Barsoom series at all and are just parroting the usual SJW idiocy.

Beat me to the punch.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell
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