Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1121185I think you might want to reread his statement, especially the part where he obfuscates things by admitting guilt, but not for what. And consider the fact he deleted it, which means it's no longer indexed and the comment history is lost.

Yeah, not gonna lie. That apology stuff was hella weird. What the fuck do sexual assault and statutory rape have to do with privilege??? Weren't those the two alleged crimes he was accused of? But then instead of addressing those he goes rambling about not checking his privilege or something, which is . . . at the very least irrelevant. I'm not sure if he's innocent or guilty, but I think he's definitely not the brightest bulb.

Quote from: jhkim;1121130Personally, I don't see any point in calling games "illegitimate" or "badwrongfun".

Conceded that it's a tricky and somewhat Bulveristic path to go down. Nonetheless, I still think it can be validly called an objective flaw in a game if it requires -- not just benefits from or can facilitate, but actively requires -- committed philosophical agreement with its message in order to be enjoyed, because in practice that almost always means nothing else about the game is fun for its own sake.  "Badwrongfun" is a subjective term of little use; "nofunatall without the propaganda" is, I think, a little less relative.

Quote from: jhkimPersonally, I don't see any point in calling games "illegitimate" or "badwrongfun".

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1121208Conceded that it's a tricky and somewhat Bulveristic path to go down. Nonetheless, I still think it can be validly called an objective flaw in a game if it requires -- not just benefits from or can facilitate, but actively requires -- committed philosophical agreement with its message in order to be enjoyed, because in practice that almost always means nothing else about the game is fun for its own sake.  "Badwrongfun" is a subjective term of little use; "nofunatall without the propaganda" is, I think, a little less relative.

I think the latter is just dressing up a different way to say that a game is badwrongfun. It's just as subjective.

And further, I don't agree with the principle. It's perfectly possible that something like Dragonraid could be a really good game design that's fun on many levels -- but non-Bible-study-students would be put off by the strong Christian veneer. Likewise, I think non-white-supremacists would be put off from playing RaHoWa regardless of whether it was a good game design or not.

In general, I don't see the need to label games other people play as illegitimate. If Bible study students are playing and enjoying Dragonraid, why would one care enough to study it and label it illegitimate "notfunatall without the propaganda"?

Quote from: jhkim;1121250I think the latter is just dressing up a different way to say that a game is badwrongfun. It's just as subjective.

That's being a little generous, I think. "Badwrongfun" is "You're doing something with this game that I (or 'Proper Players') wouldn't enjoy, therefore it's wrong." "Nofunatall SA" (Sans Agitprop) is "The only thing anyone can do with this game is something nobody enjoys who doesn't already share its viewpoint." Imagine a hypothetical version of DragonRaid which kept hammering home that everyone in both the game and real life, except those of a very specific denomination, was going to Hell if they didn't convert. However entertaining the gameplay as a set of rules taken separately from the fluff, in practice the propaganda would clearly ruin the game for far more players than not.

And yes, it's possible for anyone to take a given game and make it into something else, but the work you have to do and the distance you have to get from the starting point also make a difference. In Werewolf: The Apocalypse, for example, the setting puts a very heavy emphasis on Wyld over Weaver and nature/environment over human civilization, but it is also possible with virtually no effort to make an entire pack out of nothing but Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers and have all your PCs live happily in the city; there's no denying the game has a preferred message, but it gives ways for players to sidestep that message if they're not interested. A game which doesn't provide options of this kind is clearly more concerned with proselytizing to its players than with entertaining them, and that's what I consider objectionable.

EDIT: Actually, here's a better way to ask the question, inspired by one of the other threads I've been participating in. When wondering whether a game is too full of proselytization to be entertaining except for the choirs it's clearly preaching to, ask yourself this: Would anyone bother to create, or play, a GURPS adaptation of it?

Quote from: jhkim;1121250In general, I don't see the need to label games other people play as illegitimate. If Bible study students are playing and enjoying Dragonraid, why would one care enough to study it and label it illegitimate "notfunatall without the propaganda"?

I think it's weird to consider something a failure for doing exactly what it's intended to do. But maybe that's just me . . .

As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.

Never saw Racism. Female players. African-American players. Whites. No problem.

So what the fk is this but SJW nonsense. All they want to do in true Maoist fashion is turn allies against each other and profit from the chaos.

Ignore and expose them. Please & thanks.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1121294As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.

Never saw Racism. Female players. African-American players. Whites. No problem.

So what the fk is this but SJW nonsense. All they want to do in true Maoist fashion is turn allies against each other and profit from the chaos.

Ignore and expose them. Please & thanks.

Well said. Would upvote.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1121294As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.

Never saw Racism.

Of course not! Nobody dares fuck with the DM! You wear the Viking Hat!

Quote from: Theory of Games;1121294As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.

Never saw Racism. Female players. African-American players. Whites. No problem.

So what the fk is this but SJW nonsense. All they want to do in true Maoist fashion is turn allies against each other and profit from the chaos.

Ignore and expose them. Please & thanks.

What...I was told black people weren't allowed to play RPGs. Citation needed!

Quote from: Theory of Games;1121294As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.

Never saw Racism. Female players. African-American players. Whites. No problem.

So what the fk is this but SJW nonsense. All they want to do in true Maoist fashion is turn allies against each other and profit from the chaos.

Ignore and expose them. Please & thanks.

Now let me interject with a standard danger-hair response to this:

"Well OK, and that's so great for you! But you know, just because racism never happened to YOU at the table doesn't mean it didn't happen to anyone else! People of all sorts have been systematically marginalized by white males gatekeeping RPGs for years! I have dozens if not hundreds of friends who are gay, trans, or minorities who have tons of horror stories! Well no of course I won't tell you any of their names or stories, that's private, pretty rude to ask. But lots involve rape and racial slurs. Can you believe most gamers in the 80's wore blackface to the table? Source is Vice. Anyway, no it's not anecdotal, just look how many I've heard about versus your singular personal experience as an actual member of one of those demographics! Anyway, as a white male let me be the first to say 'you're welcome' for being your ally and helping lift you out of your oppressed state which you have been too helpless to amend or address yourself. I'm glad I could correct you on your personal firsthand experience and let you know the way things REALLY are for you and all other oppressed peoples. Truly we are so happy to invite you into the hobby! Damn those cishet whities telling what you can and can't do or say! Never let them dictate who you are! Keep up the fight!"

Quote from: Antiquation!;1121327Now let me interject with a standard danger-hair response to this:

"Well OK, and that's so great for you! But you know, just because racism never happened to YOU at the table doesn't mean it didn't happen to anyone else! People of all sorts have been systematically marginalized by white males gatekeeping RPGs for years! I have dozens if not hundreds of friends who are gay, trans, or minorities who have tons of horror stories! Well no of course I won't tell you any of their names or stories, that's private, pretty rude to ask. But lots involve rape and racial slurs. Can you believe most gamers in the 80's wore blackface to the table? Source is Vice. Anyway, no it's not anecdotal, just look how many I've heard about versus your singular personal experience as an actual member of one of those demographics! Anyway, as a white male let me be the first to say 'you're welcome' for being your ally and helping lift you out of your oppressed state which you have been too helpless to amend or address yourself. I'm glad I could correct you on your personal firsthand experience and let you know the way things REALLY are for you and all other oppressed peoples. Truly we are so happy to invite you into the hobby! Damn those cishet whities telling what you can and can't do or say! Never let them dictate who you are! Keep up the fight!"

Beautiful. Well played, sir.

I think a big part of this stuff is narcissism. If my friends and I back in 1985 were pretending to kill dragons because we thought it was fun, and not because we were scheming to exclude some random strangers we'd never met, then that implies that there are things happening somewhere in the world that are not about you! To a narcissist, that thought is intolerable. Better to believe that the entire world is in a conspiracy against you than to face the possibility that the vast majority of the world goes about its business without thinking of you at all.

The blathering of racism has a particularly pathetic ring to me because of how I got into RPGs.

Namely, the Basic redbox set, and a neighborhood friend of Indian (dot, not feather) descent.

I miss that guy. Wherever he's gone, I wish him well.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1121330Beautiful. Well played, sir.

I think a big part of this stuff is narcissism. If my friends and I back in 1985 were pretending to kill dragons because we thought it was fun, and not because we were scheming to exclude some random strangers we'd never met, then that implies that there are things happening somewhere in the world that are not about you! To a narcissist, that thought is intolerable. Better to believe that the entire world is in a conspiracy against you than to face the possibility that the vast majority of the world goes about its business without thinking of you at all.

I totally agree, and to my mind it goes hand-in-hand with that nice little piece of commentary you had linked to in the Knitting Purity thread . It's a perfect combination of factors to create breeding grounds for this brand of malignant narcissism, and RPGs make a perfect 'fallback community' (not that roleplaying has ever been one giant homogenous "community," but that's how these types see it; otherwise we couldn't collectively gatekeep them!) for them to retreat to and incubate within; these little cysts of self-importance and megalomania that help them simultaneously spread their puerile fantasies to convert and control anyone they can (thereby protecting them from the outside reality they perceive as being "against them"), but also devolving them into the cancerous tumors that eventually devour themselves in a series of delusional, paranoid crusades.

Here's the thing, these people are selling something; in this case they're selling a reason that they need to be the moral gatekeepers of this particular community.  In order to sell a thing, you need a reason for people to buy.  If a legitimate reason doesn't exist, you have to create one.  So EVIL NAZIS ARE RUNNING GAMING.  We all hate (insert sex/race/religion/whatever) because we've been going as long as we have without the guidance of our benevolent new overlords, who would have definitely put a stop to our hate to make it safe for (insert group).  The fact that this scenario bears no resemblance to reality is hardly a problem, because the people signal-boosting them in various websites and social medias aren't gamers and don't have the first idea that they're full of shit.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1121327Can you believe most gamers in the 80's wore blackface to the table?

It's true! Trudeau was my GM!

Every Friday night was pizza, D&D and greasepaint!

Quote from: Antiquation!;1121327Anyway, as a white male let me be the first to say 'you're welcome' for being your ally and helping lift you out of your oppressed state which you have been too helpless to amend or address yourself. I'm glad I could correct you on your personal firsthand experience and let you know the way things REALLY are for you and all other oppressed peoples.

1. Way too accurate!

2. #Walkaway

3. White Knights are the absolute worst of the SJW scum.