Quote from: GameDaddy;1120764Says the guy(s) supporting the guy who says, and I quote "Although it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims."

  I am reasonably certain that he was implicitly referring to the fact that many of these journalists/activists are fans of Vampire in various forms.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1120764Says the guy(s) supporting the guy who says, and I quote "Although it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims." all the while referring to D&D and 5e linking them inextricably in the minds of all readers with the "woke" losers who are intent on making all games (as many as they can)  like this. I'll be happy to adjust my worldview to accommodate better games and gaming, but never for this, and would also say, ...that you should adjust your sarcasm detector first, and not presume ill intent just because the game originated within a non-diverse and unified race, and cultural group.

Mate, I will actually pay you to get the detector fixed at this point.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1120765I am reasonably certain that he was implicitly referring to the fact that many of thee journalists/activists are fans of Vampire in various forms.

There's no use, he's a religious fanatic, he thinks that anything that transgresses against his morality should be banned, yes even in fiction. And said fanaticism prevents him from ever reading what I or Snark Knight said as mocking the SJWs. In his mind you're either on his side or you're a bad person, the mirror image of the SJWs.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1120765I am reasonably certain that he was implicitly referring to the fact that many of these journalists/activists are fans of Vampire in various forms.

That's the vibe I picked up...

Quote from: Simon Fiasco;1120769That's the vibe I picked up...

Really? In this thread about Vice's article specifically naming 5e Vampire the Masquerade? This is not 5th edition Vampire they are slamming in the Vice article, it's D&D, and specifically the 5e D&D version of Vampire. To be clear, this article also disparaged Evil Hat's Fate of Cthulu and Numenara as well as being objectionable on moral grounds because of the racial views of the original Cthulu author which Fred Hicks has absolutely no control over, because HP Lovecraft has been dead for some time now, and because for some reason now, Monte and Bruce, and Shaina and co. are BBBaaaaaaaddddd! for making their own game that just happens to include an open morals system. Screw that, they are great game designers and have been for decades. Now they are not, and just because VICE says so, What VICE claims, must now be true? ...yeah, ...vibes.

In the article itself;
"It's possible to play in uncomfortable places safely. Vampire: The Masquerade's 5th edition release made headlines when publisher White Wolf was accused of anti-semitism, promoting pedophilia, and marketing to neo-Nazis. White Wolf's response was clear and fast--it modified language in its game, apologized profusely, and included an appendix titled "Advice for Considerate Play," which detailed how to handle violence, fascism, and sexual trauma sensitively in a tabletop RPG. Then, White Wolf quickly destroyed the good will it had built up among its fans when it used Chechnya's LGBTQ community as a prop in a section of a Vampire book. White Wolf apologized, again, and Paradox Interactive--its parent company--reined it in."

That's a pretty fast and loose statement coming from any news organization, and lamentable coming from VICE, ...that it is possible to play games in uncomfortable places safely. The question really shouldn't be whether it is possible or not, the question should be, is it a good idea to play in uncomfortable places in the first place? Especially with players that aren't aware prior to the game, that they are going to be in a game that includes direct challenges to their moral or spiritual beliefs, and whether it is appropriate as a game designer to actually create a game that would take advantage of players that are unaware of the game they are actually playing? Is that the way RPGs should be played? Is that the way the majority of people play RPGs?

Happy Daze discredited the Vice article very early in this thread correctly stating "That implies (or, perhaps, outright states) that RPGs were, as a whole, previously a field claimed as owned/run/created by bigots. I see that as a false start at best." Which I happen to agree with completely, and go back to my original quote concerning this;

"I don't think that Dungeons and Dragons, especially 5th edition, is a game about an 'influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims. ' I think a very tiny, tiny, subgroup of players and GMs are playing this game that way, and that they have learned to play that particular version of game, because of the education received within their specific emerging social group, or culture.' I think this play style is getting an unwarranted amount of attention and press coverage (even though it is only actually being played by a tiny percentage of gamers) because of the divisive and controversial implications of playing in this manner far outweighs the way most GMs and players actually are playing the game. But because it is controversial, it is getting undeserved attentions in both the news, and in some gaming forums."

Quote from: HappyDaze;1120719You made a claim that the Flan are not "some periphery race"

I didn't make claims. I posted a direct quote from the book and used the title from that same book to put it in context.

Quotebut they really are little more than a minority

There are four major races in this area of the world. All things being equal, I'd expect any one of the four to represent less than 50% of the whole. In that sense, sure, the Flan are a minority. The Flan are not, however, one of the nameless unmentioned-but-alluded-to races. There's no way of getting around the fact that they are a major race in the area.

QuoteThe nations you called 'major' are nothing of the sort;

They're important enough to be shown on the world map and described in the books. Unlike the endless, nameless petty kingdoms not mentioned. I neither drew the map nor wrote the book. I didn't call them anything. This just is what's in the box set.

Quotemajor nations would include Furyondy, Nyrond, Keoland, and the Great Kingdom of Aerdy,

And many others as well, including several Flan states mentioned by name in the quote I posted.

QuoteEven within the minor lands you named where Flan are indicated, it's unusual to see significant numbers of pure-blooded Flan (DoT excepted).

Pure-blooded members of all the major races are the exception rather than the rule. Of the short list major states you chose to mention, only Furyondy is mainly pure Oeridian. Nyrond is Oeridian with a mix of Suloise, Keoland is just as much Suloise and Oeridian but also has a mix of Flan, and the Oeridians of the Great Kingdom are roughly equal parts Suloise blood.

QuoteSo yeah, they are a "periphery race" that got pushed around by the migrations and aggression of the Suel and Oeridian tribes.

And yet the migration map shows Flan tribes as remaining stationary rather than moving from one place to another, with no in-roads even made by the other races to move towards the areas of Tenh or Geoff. In the area around the Rovers of the Barrens, the map almost appears as if Baklunish and Oeridian migrations were repelled by the Flan there. There is no indication anywhere that the Flan race got pushed around. The history of eastern Oerik indicates part of what made Oeridians successful in eastern Oerik were alliances with the Flan. There is also no indication that the Flan are a periphery race. To the contrary, the book (not me) actually states, "The dark Flan complexion shows up quite often in most nations."

As for White Wolf, they have been in their own train wreck for quite some time, pretty much from the beginning. I still remember the early Origins and especially their GenCon LARP games. At the shows I stopped counting the number of times I was approached by some sexy fanged Vampire woman, or androgynous vamp, and invited to an after hours private party in one of the outlying Hotel rooms. I'm pretty sure White Wolf blackmailed a lot of their players into being loyal followers by getting compromising photos of their players at after hours parties at game shows, and then using that as leverage to exploit them and have them in turn, attempt to exploit others.

Now there were two kinds of White Wolf Vamps from this subgroup of Vampire Players that attended game shows. Those that were blackmailed and unwilling (who ditched White Wolf and quietly disavowed their participation, as soon as they realized White Wolf was actually weak), and the willing, those that were completely happy to be thralls, slaves, or subs, and thrived in that environment, and who enjoyed corrupting, compromising, or counting coup on unsuspecting Vampire players.

This, more than anything else, is why i actually wouldn't buy any White Wolf books, or run any Vampire games.

Vice Delenda Est

Quote from: GameDaddy;1120777I'm pretty sure White Wolf blackmailed a lot of their players into being loyal followers by getting compromising photos of their players at after hours parties...

The sure road to RPG industry success.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1120765I am reasonably certain that he was implicitly referring to the fact that many of these journalists/activists are fans of Vampire in various forms.

Quote from: Simon Fiasco;1120769That's the vibe I picked up...

Yes, it was 100% obvious to anyone who played RPGs or visited an RPG-related forum in the past 3 decades that it was a Vampire reference.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1120768There's no use, he's a religious fanatic, he thinks that anything that transgresses against his morality should be banned, yes even in fiction. And said fanaticism prevents him from ever reading what I or Snark Knight said as mocking the SJWs. In his mind you're either on his side or you're a bad person, the mirror image of the SJWs.

So basically a MJW (aka moral justice warrior).

Quote from: S'mon;1120648BTW I like how the article says Stoicism is Fascist. My 85 year old mother dying of pancreatic cancer must be Literally Hitler.

My sympathies to you and yours during this trying time. *Something, something [insert amusing tension-deflecting WWII reference here]*

When words devolve into meaning nothing, anything can then be labeled The Enemy. It literally is the primrose path to hell for good intentions. :cool: That's why I always respected the fight here on TheRPGSite to hold the line for meaning. (That said, words often do have more than one meaning and inflection... But that is not the issue compared to the deliberate disruption tactic of dissolving meaning.)

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1120637Or even male! I have no idea how we managed to play with a female Latina at my table in the 90's. There were no Woke to show us the way back then!

One of the early players of D&D was a girl even. Helen Cook.

Quote from: GameDaddy;11207582020 census estimate -- 6,745,354
White: 83.59%
Black or African American: 9.33%
Two or more races: 2.45%
Asian: 2.18%
Other race: 2.18%
Native American: 0.22%
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 0.04%

1. 2020 Census doesn't begin counting until April so how the heck is there a 2020 Census estimate data?
2. What happened to hispanic/latino in your data? Sure looks like that's been counted as "white"?
3. Where the F did you get that data?

Quote from: GameDaddy;1120777As for White Wolf, they have been in their own train wreck for quite some time, pretty much from the beginning. I still remember the early Origins and especially their GenCon LARP games. At the shows I stopped counting the number of times I was approached by some sexy fanged Vampire woman, or androgynous vamp, and invited to an after hours private party in one of the outlying Hotel rooms. I'm pretty sure White Wolf blackmailed a lot of their players into being loyal followers by getting compromising photos of their players at after hours parties at game shows, and then using that as leverage to exploit them and have them in turn, attempt to exploit others.

Now there were two kinds of White Wolf Vamps from this subgroup of Vampire Players that attended game shows. Those that were blackmailed and unwilling (who ditched White Wolf and quietly disavowed their participation, as soon as they realized White Wolf was actually weak), and the willing, those that were completely happy to be thralls, slaves, or subs, and thrived in that environment, and who enjoyed corrupting, compromising, or counting coup on unsuspecting Vampire players.

This, more than anything else, is why i actually wouldn't buy any White Wolf books, or run any Vampire games.

This is the most amusing post so far in this thread.