I actually work as a freelance writer for a company that makes PF supplements (and are branching out to 5e). And they use Kickstarter and patreon allot. So I can't complain about kickstarter on a fundemental level.

However I also backed Mighty No 9. So I get the issues as well.

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1119327Do you have any evidence to backup either your or Snowman's claims?

Why do you think I said rumors?  Obviously I have no evidence and I heard of this myself from other people.  So I stated as such as a rumor.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119353Wrath & Glory was a turd and I say this loving the WH40K universe; I got the PDF and then swore off the product in disgust. I hoped that C7 getting W&G might see a reboot, but last I heard, it's just going to be more of the same turd under a different publisher.

My God we need to make a separate topic about how much of a shitty product Wrath and Glory is.  What a fucking failure that game was.  Fuck that is perhaps why I am making GRIM after I make Weird because at least my core system is actually playable.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119382My God we need to make a separate topic about how much of a shitty product Wrath and Glory is.  What a fucking failure that game was.  Fuck that is perhaps why I am making GRIM after I make Weird because at least my core system is actually playable.

I already had one last spring/early summer. I'll dig it up tomorrow. For now, off to crazyland (no, literally... overnight running a mental facility, but it's no Arkham).

Same turd but they are going through and trying to fix all the mechanical issues in said turd.

And considering what they dropped at our feet for WFRP 4th ed I don't see it being all that much better off (prettier maybe).

I haven't really gotten into FFG's rpg productions since they made stuff for 3.x D&D. I have recently gotten hip to Twilight Imperium though, and would love to purchase a reprint of 4th edition. The game is currently sold out everywhere, or listed at ridiculous collector's prices. I'm hoping the layoffs don't delay them doing the reprint.

I was at a game developer meetup Wednesday and we were discussing how worldwide 1500 new games come out each year. That's 4 new games per day. It's extremely hard for a publisher to get something above the fray to gather notice in this environment, and if they don't, their sales are too low for anything other than a hobbyist's operation.    

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe we've seen a market uptick in non-D&D RPG sales since 5e. AKA, I don't believe we've seen any proof that all these new D&D 5e players are exploring other RPGs out there. Or have I missed something?

AKA, if the market for non-D&D RPGs is the same as pre-5e, then having RPG teams on salaries isn't realistic.

Quote from: jux;1119326All the gaming budget of all the gamers is a constant. And in a market where there is one block buster Kickstarter campain every month. Projects that take 3+mil from that common budget. Where minimum pledge is close to 100 and all-in is close to 300 - 400. People are just over-spent and overwhelmed of these Kickstarter projects. And there are so few actual success stories from gamers perspective, where a game has a life after several years of it's release.

Jux brings up an excellent point. There's only X dollars in the communal pot, and the communal pot for RPGs is much smaller than the boardgame pot. It's even smaller when you consider that many RPG gamers also play non-RPG games so their personal pot of money is being drained via Kickstarter.

I gotta admit that I've spend FAR more on KS boardgames than KS RPG stuff. Probably x5 more, even though by the numbers, I've bought more RPG stuff. AKA, I'll buy various RPG PDFs for a few bucks here and there, then drop a hundred on a big boardgame.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119381Why do you think I said rumors?  Obviously I have no evidence and I heard of this myself from other people.  So I stated as such as a rumor.

Because his axe to grind theory is more valid than what FFG stated happened because he has an axe to grind against FFG.

That said. GWs licensing hike and/or termination seems to have come as a surprise to FFG as there were a couple of games allready in production that would see release and then promptly be ended when the contract expired.

Someone else suggested GW may have tried to demand FFG end their Star Wars contract and line. But I dont think even GW is that stupid. Then again. They are that stupid so all bets are off.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119382My God we need to make a separate topic about how much of a shitty product Wrath and Glory is.  What a fucking failure that game was.  Fuck that is perhaps why I am making GRIM after I make Weird because at least my core system is actually playable.

I looked up the thread, but it wasn't mine and it wandered off topic very quickly. I did grab this post that I made there:
I wanted to love this game, but I cannot. Just for a start, consider that a Tier 3 Adeptus Astartes Tactical Space Marine will have Strength, Agility, and Toughness scores of 5-7. That's on this scale:

Relative Human
Attribute Values
Value Relative Human Ability
9+ Superhuman: Only alien species or humans enhanced by
special powers, Adeptus Astartes gene-seed, or unusual
items are capable of such extremes.
8 Exceptional: The best most humans can be.
6–7 Outstanding: Very adept or smart, in top physical shape,
very popular.
4–5 High Average: Athletic, intelligent, or amiable.
3 Average: Normal physical shape, intelligence, or
likeability.
2 or less Poor: Unhealthy and weak, uncoordinated and stiff,
weak-minded, unlikable.

That means that the Space Marines are way underpowered. I understand the need for balance, but 7' tall genetically and surgically modified super-soldiers that can't even qualify as "Exceptional: The best most humans can be." (note, that this is speaking of unmodified humans) is just too sad.

The game also has a problem with suggested default arrays of attributes and skills that too expensive for many characters to even afford. I would rather the default arrays be affordable and that people could purchase up from there rather than have to prune down to an affordable level.

Oh, and ascension packages suck, particularly for the costs attached.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119453I wanted to love this game, but I cannot. Just for a start, consider that a Tier 3 Adeptus Astartes Tactical Space Marine will have Strength, Agility, and Toughness scores of 5-7. That's on this scale:

Attribute Values
Value Relative Human Ability
9+ Superhuman: Only alien species or humans enhanced by special powers, Adeptus Astartes gene-seed, or unusual items are capable of such extremes.

Based on the chart you provided it says that Adeptus Astartes should be around a 9. That alone says they screwed up somewhere when the average astartes from the chart is that far above when you get if you play one.

GW probably got nervous at seeing the success of X-Wing and either knew or assumed a tabletop wargame using the IP wouldn't be far behind. Remember this is the company who did a blanket name change of all 'standard' fantasy terms to project brand awareness and protect copyright (Aelves, Duradin, Ogors, etc). The final Black Crusade sourcebook took a very long time to even be announced (I think it had been almost two years since Tome of Excess had come out and everybody had written the line off as dead) and was suspiciously beefy with both Nurgle and Undivided content that could've easily been - and had probably been planned as - its own release. Enemies Beyond had a very uncharacteristically quick turnaround for a FFG splat as well. This tells me they had forewarning, but that FFG hadn't planned on losing it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119382My God we need to make a separate topic about how much of a shitty product Wrath and Glory is.  What a fucking failure that game was.  Fuck that is perhaps why I am making GRIM after I make Weird because at least my core system is actually playable.

I don't know how I feel about WANG's failure. I do feel pretty smug that I privately predicted exactly how it ended up. There was always a very vocal minority when it came to the FFG 40k books - usually from people who hadn't played RPGs or exclusively played 5E - who always bitched and moaned the corebooks didn't support Super Friends parties as standard, with a Space Marine, an Ork, a Eldar Farseer, a Tau Battlesuit and Imperial Guardsman all in the same group at once. WANG obviously aimed for that audience along with 'narrative game' meme that was also trying to... not... be a narrative game (and I say this as somebody who likes story-driven systems). Low and behold it ended up having the depth of a puddle and none of the promised sourcebooks to expand on the "there's basically 1% of the depth any of the FFG corebooks had". It doesn't help that GW themselves helped advertise it, so the ever obnoxious nUGW Defence Forces couldn't suck it off enough.

It likely didn't help that the hardbacks were eye-wateringly expensive to pre-order. If I remember right you could only grab a $100 version unless you waited for a standard retail release, which was around $70 anyway.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1119496I don't know how I feel about WANG's failure. I do feel pretty smug that I privately predicted exactly how it ended up. There was always a very vocal minority when it came to the FFG 40k books - usually from people who hadn't played RPGs or exclusively played 5E - who always bitched and moaned the corebooks didn't support Super Friends parties as standard, with a Space Marine, an Ork, a Eldar Farseer, a Tau Battlesuit and Imperial Guardsman all in the same group at once. WANG obviously aimed for that audience along with 'narrative game' meme that was also trying to... not... be a narrative game (and I say this as somebody who likes story-driven systems). Low and behold it ended up having the depth of a puddle and none of the promised sourcebooks to expand on the "there's basically 1% of the depth any of the FFG corebooks had". It doesn't help that GW themselves helped advertise it, so the ever obnoxious nUGW Defence Forces couldn't suck it off enough.

Which how is that even possible setting wise?  I can see Imperial forces working together because at the end of the day they all serve the Emperor.  That said I still think it would be a rough ride as the Imperial forces had in the past fought against each other and frankly don't even trust each other at all.  Space marines had fought and killed off battle nuns in the past.  Hell I think Salamanders got pissed off with the nuns for purging a bunch of civilians and decided to do their own form of purging.  Let me also bring up the time the Space Wolves got pissed off with the inquisition on many occasions.  Also how is a poorly equipped imperial guardsmen suppose to keep up with space marine, pull out the same level of influence of a inquisitor, or even attain the mass wealth of a Rogue Trader.  By the way why would anyone in the group even trust the Inquisitor in the party?  At least if they dangle shiny coins the Rogue Trader can be loyal, but that Inquisitor guy?  Who fucking knows what fuck up shit he is into and more importantly who side he is on.  Total fucking creep right there.

Now toss in aliens, or even a chaos worshiping fiend...  Well shit is about to get quite ugly.  At least the chaos marine knows that things are only getting worst and thus mentally prepared for it.  That poor tau fire caste warrior don't know what is coming for him...  Which wait even the fire caste warrior doesn't even trust the Kroot mercenary.  Fuck...

Quote from: Snowman0147;1119508Which how is that even possible setting wise?  I can see Imperial forces working together because at the end of the day they all serve the Emperor.  That said I still think it would be a rough ride as the Imperial forces had in the past fought against each other and frankly don't even trust each other at all.  Space marines had fought and killed off battle nuns in the past.  Hell I think Salamanders got pissed off with the nuns for purging a bunch of civilians and decided to do their own form of purging.  Let me also bring up the time the Space Wolves got pissed off with the inquisition on many occasions.  Also how is a poorly equipped imperial guardsmen suppose to keep up with space marine, pull out the same level of influence of a inquisitor, or even attain the mass wealth of a Rogue Trader.  By the way why would anyone in the group even trust the Inquisitor in the party?  At least if they dangle shiny coins the Rogue Trader can be loyal, but that Inquisitor guy?  Who fucking knows what fuck up shit he is into and more importantly who side he is on.  Total fucking creep right there.

Now toss in aliens, or even a chaos worshiping fiend...  Well shit is about to get quite ugly.  At least the chaos marine knows that things are only getting worst and thus mentally prepared for it.  That poor tau fire caste warrior don't know what is coming for him...  Which wait even the fire caste warrior doesn't even trust the Kroot mercenary.  Fuck...

Yeah, well, my girlfriend isn't interested in any of the human stuff and wants to play an Eldar. Maybe you could like, stop gatekeeping okay? It costs nothing to not be an asshole.

In all seriousness, I loved that each of FFG's core rulebooks felt like different RPGs that just shared a similar ruleset and setting. A Dark Heresy game was completely different to a Black Crusade or Deathwatch campaign but with the mechanics to back it up in almost every aspect. As soon as WANG was announced to be doing away with this and going with the kitchen sink, it was always going to be doomed just because there's so many different power levels in the setting that you either end up with a painfully bland book that might as well have been a homebrew for another (better) system or take FFG's approach. Unlike their Star Wars RPGs I actually felt like there was enough content, between the rules, lore, meta-setting and art to justify each one being an individual product.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119265Why the joy at their failure? Is this one of those "They played games the wrong way!" things?

Their games were crap.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1119992Their games were crap.

Because?