Quote from: SHARK;1118166Seattle 2020 mindset.

I can remember when 2020 was the gritty setting!

Quote from: tenbones;1118677Ahh! The good 'ol days.

It's funny you bring this up - because I look back on all these elements to inform my own "Dark Ages" style "gritty" games. LITERALLY everything you describe is my childhood references.

And it's basically because that's how people lived. Like Pundit said, the Dark Ages were gritty, but it wasn't always gritty. Certainly less so now, in third world countries, but it depends. I think the reason why a lot of D&D players like the Disney-version is because they've been taught sub-consiously simply by living here in America/Europe to abhor what they consider extreme poverty. When to those living in it, or on its periphery - that's just life.

But living in that manner produces a lot of stuff that gamers today consider "adventure" by dint of the modern conveniences they take for granted. My uncles used to go out and "catch" dinner. We'd cook outside over open pits - my auntie farmed (and now my cousins STILL farm) pigs which they butcher right there in the "backyard". Water came from a well. Chickens, small garden, little bit of foraging - Not too different from "Ye Goode Olde Dayse" in a medieval society.

But all the folklore and supersition you'd have in European Dark Ages are very much part of the third-world consciousness. There is a LOT to pull from, even if you wanna Disney-fy it, to give some "verisimilitude" to the conceits of living in that era that you can find right now. Even in part of the US (and I'm sure in rural Europe).

@Scrivener - have you seen... THE LADY IN WHITE? There have been a couple of filipino/Malay folklore monsters that have made it into D&D like the Penanggalan - always a classic.

Oh yeah, we still slaughter pigs at my in-laws' place with a long knife to the heart. Blood pumps everywhere, until it is collected in a pot. Of course, this often happens at festival time and, if you don't know better, you would swear the entire village is making babies scream as the pigs begin to realise what's about to happen.

Many of their neighbours still pump the water they need each day - not from wells, per se; there are public water pumps. A couple of my neighbours in the wealthier part of the city also have water pumps in their yards because public water is so unreliable due to the massive corruption and incompetence in the local water company. (As you know in the Philippines, if you wake up and find there is not massive corruption and incompetence it means you have forgotten that you had flown to another country the night before.)

Yes, I have seen a white lady albeit in Singapore. I had Filipino friends staying with me and, when I described what I had seen, they were suitably horrified. My apartment overlooked a Muslim cemetery so they claimed that was the source. When my wife was pregnant, she insisted on either sleeping in black night clothes or wrapped in a black sheet to keep the unnamed monsters away from the baby. (I think this may have been an aswang or its local equivalent?)

I cycle through some small villages most days when I am there and there are these weird little shrines in most of them. The form of Catholicism practised in much of the Philippines is largely pre-Reformation so you can more clearly see the pagan roots showing. One of the more notable shrines on my cycling route is dedicted to the "magic medal of Mary" which makes me want to stat up a D&D magic item. You certainly would never find that in a post-Reformation country with Catholicism.

I also cannot travel more than 30 kms from my house because of the risk of running into "monsters" except that these monsters are, of course, terrorists. And I am white so I am a high value target for these terrorists and for rogue police involved for kidnap-for-ransom. In one direction I have the Communist terrorists and, in the other direction, I have Muslim terrorists. Again, good fodder for the DM brain - I live in a points-of-light world!

Back to the OP, I also rely heavily for my safety on a border fort. At a key intersection on my cycling route, there is a small fortified outpost of the army guarding primarily against the Communist terrorists. It's my border fort and I am incredibly grateful that it is there as it guards the only surreptitious entrance to the city I live in. All the other entrances are guarded by police checkpoints but this one is at the mouth of a valley with little traffic. I am surprised they found someone smart enough in command to put it in such a key location.

But, yes, it's all good fodder for the DM brain when villages need to be described in some detail.

It's a Big amazing world with a Lot of variation. Many people have never lived out of their local area and have a hard time imagining what life is like somewhere else.
Movies can only do so much in exposing people to other parts of the world.
It is hard to run a game with a setting that you have no actual reference to.
I suspect that is why there are so many "Disney" versions of games that are from a stereotypical mid-western American viewpoint.

I've tried running Empire of the Petal Throne but the only touch stones I have is some tourist travel in China and a few movies.
The players that have tried the game have even less.

Not sure if this is a digression per se... Shark you can make the call.

But the real "meat" of a "Dark Ages" conceit is "Civilization vs. Barbarism" and that gray-space inbetween. It's really funny how big that space is because it's totally dependent on what that Civilization *was* and to what degree of Barbarism it fell to. The discussion about third-world countries rural subsistence living is great inspiration for trying to pin down the realities for use in such games, because there are entirely different expressions of it historically, but there's always some basics that have to be followed.

Case in point - looking at the Plains Indians of America, a topic I'm only recently discovering is *vastly* different in reality from what most people in America think of. I grew up with "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and the whole "Dances with Wolves" Disney-idea of how they lived, the "noble savage". But I now know the Plains Indians were gangbanging savages of the highest order, like my ancestors in the jungles of the Philippines (arguably worse). But it's not like as primitive cultures they had achieved some high level of civility to "fall" from - which is a major denotation of "Dark Age".

But the day-to-day practices of living are things that can inform the who/what/how one survives at that lowest level of barbarism, which you can build on for your "descended state" of your Dark Age. The question of course is "to what degree". Even in Dark Ages Europe... for whatever we want to call "General Median Lifestyle" - there are ALWAYs going to be fringes of that reality that are even worse. I mean... you still had some *real* savages running around after the fall of Rome. But Dark Ages style settings are hard... the enemies have to be harder, right?

Quote from: Greentongue;1118791I've tried running Empire of the Petal Throne but the only touch stones I have is some tourist travel in China and a few movies.
The players that have tried the game have even less.

That would seem to be a decent start to any EPT game. When I was in Korea, the village right outside of the military base was hedonistic and wild. It featured hundreds of restuarants, hotels, motels, nightclubs, and whorehouses. a little alleyway threaded through this entire mess and up a steep hill, complete with sidestreets, dead ends, jinked alleys where you get get mugged, and some of the densest residential areas I have ever seen. At the very top of the hill, was of course, a temple, The Blue Mosque. A typical Friday night in this neighborhood saw fifty thousand,  sometimes up to, and more than one hundred thousand people all jammed into an area of less than half of a square mile. When I think of Jakalla, it immediately brings me back to this place.

Another time I traveled South for several days, to the seat of the old Southern Capital, Gyeong-ju. then further to Jinhyeon-dong and Bulguksa Temple. I always imagined EPT was like ancient Thai or India, but just visiting here gave me a good feel for the exotic temples and cities of the far east...

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Gorgeous photos!!

Quote from: tenbones;1118838Gorgeous photos!!

Yes, from Google Maps. Unfortunately my personal photos of the Temple and Southern Palaces were destroyed in an accidental fire in Colorado in 2014. The Buddhist monks hand paint the entire Temple, many hundred of thousands of square feet of detailed and fine illustrations with inscriptions in multiple languages. I didn't see one peeling, or faded, post, or wall, anywhere on the Temple grounds which covered several hundred acres.

Yes, the photos are inspiring to those with interest but hard for people that have not lived there to engage their imagination.
Movies are as close as people usually get and as soon as they step off "the set" they are at a loss. IMO

Quote from: Marchand;1118775I can remember when 2020 was the gritty setting!

Greetings!

*Laughs* Very true! I remember that as well!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: tenbones;1118796Not sure if this is a digression per se... Shark you can make the call.

But the real "meat" of a "Dark Ages" conceit is "Civilization vs. Barbarism" and that gray-space inbetween. It's really funny how big that space is because it's totally dependent on what that Civilization *was* and to what degree of Barbarism it fell to. The discussion about third-world countries rural subsistence living is great inspiration for trying to pin down the realities for use in such games, because there are entirely different expressions of it historically, but there's always some basics that have to be followed.

Case in point - looking at the Plains Indians of America, a topic I'm only recently discovering is *vastly* different in reality from what most people in America think of. I grew up with "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and the whole "Dances with Wolves" Disney-idea of how they lived, the "noble savage". But I now know the Plains Indians were gangbanging savages of the highest order, like my ancestors in the jungles of the Philippines (arguably worse). But it's not like as primitive cultures they had achieved some high level of civility to "fall" from - which is a major denotation of "Dark Age".

But the day-to-day practices of living are things that can inform the who/what/how one survives at that lowest level of barbarism, which you can build on for your "descended state" of your Dark Age. The question of course is "to what degree". Even in Dark Ages Europe... for whatever we want to call "General Median Lifestyle" - there are ALWAYs going to be fringes of that reality that are even worse. I mean... you still had some *real* savages running around after the fall of Rome. But Dark Ages style settings are hard... the enemies have to be harder, right?

Greetings!

Excellent, my friend! No, you're not digressing at all. It's an expansion of the base subject!:D

The struggle of "Civilization vs. Barbarism" is a very real struggle, and a pervasive aspect of the Dark Ages. It is often reflected in the barbarian, nomadic, rural-living barbarian peoples resisting the lure of civilization, the triumph of large-scale agriculture, the ensuing change in lifestyle, political and civic leadership, and even religious changes. Let's face it, civilization, large-scale agriculture, urban-centered communities, a more formal, systemic government, codification of laws and legal systems, and an urbanization of religion--emphasizing temples and religious hierarchy, and a shift away from a bartering-based economy to that of a coin-based economy--all of these changes are enormous, any one of them, but when combined, they represent an entire destruction of a way of life, of a tribal identity for a people.

And we wonder why the Germans, and the Celts, and the Slavs, the Baltic tribes, and the Vikings, and the Huns, and the Mongols, all resisted with such savage and enduring fury.

The conflict is deep, and bitter.

Indeed, I agree that having some idea of what was achieved *before* the fall into the Dark Ages is critical, as well. You must be familiar with what *was* to know what is different, in contrast now.

I think players can be shepherded along into the new experience of getting away from Disney fantasy. I often highlight my game sessions with more or less exotic food--Chinese, Persian, Indian, Greek, to help get the players shifted into a different mind-set, starting with their taste buds and palette. I also use many kinds of world music, both traditional styles and modern, and point to various books showing people, clothing, animals, houses and general architecture, all flowing towards encouraging the players to get their minds more distant from not just "Middle America" but a modernistic, Seattle 2020, Disney-Fantasy view of "medieval life."

I have found some good success with such an approach, and the techniques and examples, while being fun, delicious, and interesting, do actually help people to think and feel differently, and to attempt to *imagine* differently.

I always hope to encourage players to in the process of *imagining* differently, help them become more immersed in the campaign world. This serves to gradually build up a knowledge of the campaign world, and a respect for the peoples, cultures, religions, and ways of life. The players then, through their characters, develop this awareness, this knowledge, a kind of emotional connection to the campaign world.

Your campaign world must be a greater source of authority and identity than Disney. As daunting a task as that might seem, with an open mind, and some effort, it can be accomplished. The players certainly enjoy it more. I have noticed also that the stories become about them, their characters, the campaign world--and not about some kind of reflection or reflexive adherence to Disney Fantasy. It can be a lot of work, though I find it worthwhile and rewarding.

All of those little details, like how they prepare food, how they get to eat, with what, how they get water, how they bathe, all kinds of things, all seem to be on some level trivial--but when taken together, increase that dynamic of immersion. Cultural customs, how the classes relate to each other, how men and women relate to each other, particular clothing, makeup, jewelry, modes of address, various public and ceremonial rituals--all go into creating that immersive atmosphere that makes the campaign world different, distinct, and interesting. The game isn't always about killing everything and being "Murder-Hobos." *laughs*

I always find it to be interesting and enjoyable when the players are more interested in their characters, their character's relationships with others around them, the local campaign environment, NPC's and so on, ambitions and goals, than they are in "Leveling up", "new powers" or other mechanical aspects of the game.

Vindicating the reputation of a friend, gaining the respect of an elderly priest, helping the local blacksmith or a soldier with a problem, and making new friends with a merchant or an elf ranger that lives in the nearby woods, these kinds of accomplishments become rewards in of themselves. Pursuing these kinds of things through knowledge of local cultures and customs, of navigating these things in a harsh and brutal world that is very unlike the modern world, also becomes a meaningful challenge, that is also distinct from the fake standards of achievement for the Disney mind set as well. I find that the Disney mind set is often shallow, and simply reinforces comfort zones and preconceived ideas of a idealistic, railroad kind of story. To hell with that, you know? *Laughs*

[video=youtube;_DTMoZf1jis]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DTMoZf1jis[/youtube]

The woman dancing in this video is incredible. However, it is also her costume, her body movements, and the very distinct music and vocals which are all magnificent. This kind of thing helps the mind to *imagine* something different from the Disney experience and mind set.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GameDaddy;1118841Yes, from Google Maps. Unfortunately my personal photos of the Temple and Southern Palaces were destroyed in an accidental fire in Colorado in 2014. The Buddhist monks hand paint the entire Temple, many hundred of thousands of square feet of detailed and fine illustrations with inscriptions in multiple languages. I didn't see one peeling, or faded, post, or wall, anywhere on the Temple grounds which covered several hundred acres.

Greetings!

I love the gorgeous photos, Gamedaddy! Brilliant! Even when players have never personally been to such foreign places, having clothing, music, food, cultural objects or art, and beautiful photos all help. Get away from the Disney vision, you know? I love the different stuff!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1118847[video=youtube;_DTMoZf1jis]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DTMoZf1jis[/youtube]

The woman dancing in this video is incredible. However, it is also her costume, her body movements, and the very distinct music and vocals which are all magnificent. This kind of thing helps the mind to *imagine* something different from the Disney experience and mind set.

And it's called "Happy Birthday Tribal Mafia", which is an excellent name for a video clip.

Quote from: tenbones;1118711Ahh! Yeah I've played with GM's like that before... They're inversely naive about "gritty settings" for oddly similar reasons relating to never having "been there" and simply not giving it any thought. But you know, campaigns like that are hard to sustain when your GM's are not really able to make those conceits engaging, rather than just punishing for punishment's sake. They crash. Hopefully the GM learns.

This alludes to what Pundit said about "The Dark Ages wasn't all grimy..." there has to be elements of humanity we can engage with for it to have a ring of authenticity in a sandbox. Because ideally this is setting the standard for lowest common denominator for civilization. Otherwise it's not civilization at all, and we're really talking about savage tribalism too. And even THAT is totally gameable.

I think you are understating your case.  It is something I've noticed for some time now.  I'm a little (but not much) younger than the original D&D crowd.  Call it a half-generation removed.  I caught the tail-end of using a well, when it was hooked up to an electric pump.  But I've done the haul in a bucket for a garden.  People mostly got their food from the supermarket, but a few, now and then, butchered their own.  And even a wider net is the hands-on crafts, activities, and so forth of day-to-day living.  For example, I never made a quilt because I had to have it or be cold.  I did make a quilt with people that had done that, and did it the same way they did.  A lot of things I didn't experience myself, but I knew personally people that did.  And talked to them a lot about it.  Most of our wood-working was done with power tools, but I've logged wood, seen it cut up, and made something from it with hand tools and sweat.

What I see often is many people that are another generation and a half removed from those experiences--at least two generations removed from the start of RPGs.  (The exceptions are people that have spent some time in other parts of the world.)  Not only can they not kill a chicken and prepare it, they personally have never talked to anyone that has done it!  At some point, it's hard to even get to a place in imagination and a frame of reference to convey what "dark ages" means--positive or negative.

Quote from: SHARK;1118166I certainly do love high culture, grand civilization, high magic, and all the wondrous possibilities that such embraces. However, in my own Thandor Campaign, I have had to restrain myself. It seems to me, much like for the fantastical to hold wonder, it likewise must be comparatively *rare*. Thus, I have many border fortresses that are harsh, muddy things, jagged, wooden palisade walls, uneven shack-like towers, gates of timbers and basic iron bands. Nothing too complex or sophisticated.

The communities, likewise, must be kept simple, harsh, and brutal. Lots of mud in the streets, open sewers, garbage piles being burned out in the open, soot everywhere, lots of wood's smoke. Animals being slaughtered and gutted in the open air. Forget plumbing and sewer systems. Water must be fetched from a well, and brought in by the bucket, by the sweat of your brow, or the sweat of a slave. Food preparation is also harsh, and simple. Rough. This all of course means than such closely packed human communities are just bubbling with horrid smells, fetid air, and lots of germs and disease. Shit and mud-covered peasants and slaves everywhere.

Keep modern cleanliness, and effortless labour for everything far away from the normal campaign. Make the players always dirty and smelly, and sweating for everything. Often cold and wet. It's always some horrid extreme of one kind or another. *Comfort* itself, *Convenience* is something they must achieve by hard efforts on their own, or through the use of slaves. Otherwise, life is full of hard work, sweating, and discomfort and struggle of all kinds, every fucking day.

I enjoy a game that tends that way just a little, but not nearly all the way.  I don't want the Disney idealized version, but I do want it to be not quite so grimy and brutal as reality would suggest.  Part of the reason is just general preferences for me and my players.  However, part of it is that I want the fantastical elements to pile on top of it.  You pile nasty fantastical on top of grimy and brutal mundane, what you get it too close to horror for our tastes.  

Depending upon how much magic you want, it also provides an alternative to the "great fallen empire" base.  In the alternate campaign, it's set in the dark ages, and it's always been the dark ages.  People carve out their security and happiness, often managing to produce some peace and prosperity for a time, but it's only one interfering fey elf or nasty sorcerer away from collapsing.