Hello all:

One of my Stars Without Number campaigns is taking a 5 month hiatus soon due to employment issues of one of my players. While that player is keen on us continuing on for five months without him, I was thinking that a short campaign of something else, though related, might be in order.  Someone said "hey, what about Star Wars?" and, well, I knew there was only one version worth playing: the d6 system with whatever stuff from the Star Wars REUP fan-rules that seem feasible.

I've played the original WEG d6 Star Wars rpg, 25 years ago. I have searched my feelings, I know it to be the best version.  But I've never run a game of it.  This will be a ten-game campaign.

So, I have a couple of questions:

1. The skill list: seems ridiculously overly detailed. Does the game suffer too much if I were to make all the ship piloting skills just "Starships"?  Same with many of the Technical/repair skills.  

2. Combat: my read of the rules is that characters have to declare their actions at the start of their turn, and then take all their actions at once. So, if they want to keep a Reaction (dodge, parry) handy, they have to declare it at the start of their turn, and take the Multiple Action Penalty.  Is that more or less correct? Am I missing something? If they don't declare an additional action for the sake of their defensive posture, can they take a reaction and take a MAP on their next turn? Or is that too wonky?

3. The Force: the REUP rules seem to have lifted a lot of things from the Saga edition of the game as well as other sources. I have one player who is DEAD SET on being a force user (Jedi). I don't want him to feel burned by the skills, so are there some things about the d6 Force rules that need tweaking, or are they pretty solid?

If anyone has any advice or specific things they've run into running d6 Star Wars, I'd love to hear about it!  Thanks!

If you're using standard starting characters and the suggested advancement rate, a wannabe Jedi is still going to suck hard after 10 sessions. They eventually get very powerful, but they are pathetic in the beginning.

Yeah the skill list badly needs some pruning. Just feels silly that my character can't do shit because he's behind the wheel of a slightly different vehicle or shooting a slightly different weapon. Maybe fine in a more realistic game but feels off in something like Star Wars. My only real gripe about the game.

Quote from: Daztur;1118197Yeah the skill list badly needs some pruning. Just feels silly that my character can't do shit because he's behind the wheel of a slightly different vehicle or shooting a slightly different weapon. Maybe fine in a more realistic game but feels off in something like Star Wars. My only real gripe about the game.

Just to clarify, are you talking about the second edition of the game? I've never played that one, but I've heard it really went too far with overspecializing skills. I don't think it was an issue in the first edition, though.

Quote from: Premier;1118219Just to clarify, are you talking about the second edition of the game? I've never played that one, but I've heard it really went too far with overspecializing skills. I don't think it was an issue in the first edition, though.

He said REUP. That's 2e Revised, Expanded, and UPdated--so lots of skill bloat and Force power bloat too.

I'm sure your Feelings are telling you that you ought to run 1st edition d6 SW with the Rules Companion errata. That is the best game. Accept no substitutes.

BTW for my planned Mini Six game I am looking at damage = the skill roll, plus the bonus weapon dice. (For Mini 6, reducing the weapon dice by 2D looks right, with some tweaking - basically weapons bonus varying from +1 to +2D).

This would up the lethality quite a lot I think; I find Mini 6 is a bit too un-lethal in damage vs high Might/Strength characters. For SW if doing that I would need to restat the Stormtroopers, giving them 2d6 in all stats is not going to work. Armour should be a bit less useless, too. I'd prefer that armour not be a negative (the SW rule that d6 armour is -d6 to skills is pretty awful), but for SW it should only give a marginal benefit vs powerful attacks, and any hit is likely to be incapacitating, certainly any hit on a mook by a hero.

Another idea I had was to cap abilities/skills/rolls at 10d6, so no one is rolling 15d6 - I think in the Imperial Sourcebook the Emperor rolls 15d6 for some Force powers. Mini 6 suggests a possible cap of 5d6 then add pips (1d = 3 pips) but that seems too low.

Quote from: Heavy Josh;11181882. Combat: my read of the rules is that characters have to declare their actions at the start of their turn, and then take all their actions at once. So, if they want to keep a Reaction (dodge, parry) handy, they have to declare it at the start of their turn, and take the Multiple Action Penalty.  Is that more or less correct? Am I missing something? If they don't declare an additional action for the sake of their defensive posture, can they take a reaction and take a MAP on their next turn? Or is that too wonky?

Mini Six uses static defences, TN = Dice x 3 + pips. So eg Dodge 4D+2 gives a Static defence of (4x3)+2=14. Using this does not take an Action AFAICT, at any rate it seems a good house rule for a pulp-hero game.

Quote from: Heavy Josh;11181881. The skill list: seems ridiculously overly detailed. Does the game suffer too much if I were to make all the ship piloting skills just "Starships"?  Same with many of the Technical/repair skills.

Gonna answer using 1st edition, as that's what you should be using..

It's really not. Considering starting characters can MAYBE put 1 or 2 dice into their specialties, it really doesn't matter much. In play, it was always interesting to have a Kid with a die in droid repair or something; totally fits the genre and differentiates the characters.

Quote2. Combat: my read of the rules is that characters have to declare their actions at the start of their turn, and then take all their actions at once. So, if they want to keep a Reaction (dodge, parry) handy, they have to declare it at the start of their turn, and take the Multiple Action Penalty.  Is that more or less correct? Am I missing something? If they don't declare an additional action for the sake of their defensive posture, can they take a reaction and take a MAP on their next turn? Or is that too wonky?

Don't use later editions as this got really stupid...1st edition is quite simple: you want to make two shots with a blaster? Declare them. Reactions are reactive...you just do them as needed and they aren't declared before the combat round. Supposing you declare a single blaster shot with a 5D skill, and later need to Dodge. You already made the Blaster shot at 5D, the Dodge is your second action so it's 4D. A second Dodge would be 3D. Now, if you had declared these actions initially, they'd ALL be 3D, but that makes the game way too complicated and pretty dumb because how the hell are you gonna know if you need to Dodge? Conversely, if you had declared a Blaster at 5D, but have to Dodge before you shoot, you'd do a 4D Dodge and then a 4D Blaster whenever your turn came up because Dodge is your second action (technically) and Blaster is also reduced due to having to Dodge first. Winning initiative really means something.

Quote3. The Force: the REUP rules seem to have lifted a lot of things from the Saga edition of the game as well as other sources. I have one player who is DEAD SET on being a force user (Jedi). I don't want him to feel burned by the skills, so are there some things about the d6 Force rules that need tweaking, or are they pretty solid?

It's a trade off. Jedi tend to be less skillful than non-Force users but get Force skills. That's just how it works. If a Jedi complains about not being as good a pilot as the Smuggler, ask him if he'd like to trade 1D in Sense for 1D in Starship Piloting.

QuoteIf anyone has any advice or specific things they've run into running d6 Star Wars, I'd love to hear about it!  Thanks!

If you want a lot more info, check out The Rancor Pit forum. They can probably address your concerns better than anyone on this board.

Quote from: Heavy Josh;11181881. The skill list: seems ridiculously overly detailed. Does the game suffer too much if I were to make all the ship piloting skills just "Starships"?  Same with many of the Technical/repair skills.

This is a common issue with skill-based systems. While I do believe that certain specialized tasks should require specific training I don't think that treating every variation of what's essentially a piloting skill or a melee combat skill (etc.) as a completely separate skill that must be improved separately (without contributing anything to similar tasks) is necessary or even realistic. Training in a specific type of melee weapon absolutely does contribute to your skill in other melee weapons IRL, for example (I know from experience).

IMO the best way to handle skills is as consolidated abilities that handle every similar task, then treat specific variations as specialties of the core skill. In the case of specialized tasks you could treat those as specializations as well, but require characters to train in those specialties to be able to perform those functions effectively. That way you can have consolidated skills to handle a character's core talent (i.e. "level" of ability) in similar types of task while still taking specific training into account.

Quote from: Heavy Josh;11181881. The skill list: seems ridiculously overly detailed. Does the game suffer too much if I were to make all the ship piloting skills just "Starships"?  Same with many of the Technical/repair skills.  

Nope. It just makes for a slightly different tone and style of play. The number of skills and the degree of specialization of those skills increased with each successive version of the rules. So the first edition (1E) has fewer and broader skills while 2E and the 2E Revised and Expanded (2ER&E) has more and in some cases narrower or more specialized skill, e.g. is there one skill for piloting all starships or does one differentiate, i.e. use different skills for piloting starfighters, transports, and large capital ships. This trend continues in the 2E Revised and Updated (2ERUp)

Quote2. Combat: my read of the rules is that characters have to declare their actions at the start of their turn, and then take all their actions at once. So, if they want to keep a Reaction (dodge, parry) handy, they have to declare it at the start of their turn, and take the Multiple Action Penalty.  Is that more or less correct? Am I missing something? If they don't declare an additional action for the sake of their defensive posture, can they take a reaction and take a MAP on their next turn? Or is that too wonky?

This varies somewhat by edition. However, actions are not taken at once, they are taken successively with all first actions being resolved before any second actions are resolved. (There may be an exception if Haste actions are allowed, but that is not used in 2ERUP so I'm not going to go into that.) Generally in most editions there are two types of dodges - a full dodge and a reaction dodge.

A full dodge must be declared, uses the full skill value, applies to all missile attacks that round, and prevents other actions from being taken.

A reaction dodge need not be declared ahead of time. It counts as an additional action (though it can substitute for an already declared action that has not yet been taken), which (if more than one action is declared or taken) will cause multiple action penalties (MAPs) to apply, and it applies only to one attack.

Quote3. The Force: the REUP rules seem to have lifted a lot of things from the Saga edition of the game as well as other sources. I have one player who is DEAD SET on being a Force user (Jedi). I don't want him to feel burned by the skills, so are there some things about the d6 Force rules that need tweaking, or are they pretty solid?

If anyone has any advice or specific things they've run into running d6 Star Wars, I'd love to hear about it!  Thanks!

2ER&E does not as it was published prior to prequel films and to the D20 or Saga D20 editions of the rules. The fan made Revised and Updated rules does add some things to allow some of the abilities seen in the prequels often via taking something form one of the D20 Star Wars versions.

Personally I prefer (and have more extensively run and played) the second editions (2E or 2E R&E). I find the first edition a bit too broad and undefined for my preferences. I'm not as fond of the changes made in the fan-made REUP version.

The WEG rules were designed to allow a PC to (eventually) become a Force user with powers similar to what we see Luke use in the original trilogy and where the abilities of characters like Leia, Han, Chewie, and Lando are not completely overshadowed by a Jedi PC. And the WEG rules work well for that. The WEG rules are not designed to imitate the often much higher powered prequel trilogy with its jumping, spinning Yoda and its near absence of effective non-Force using heroes. Nor is it designed to imitate the activities or morality of the video games. Adapting the WEG rules to those higher powered settings will take some significant work. A looser Force system like that of first edition might be easier to adapt, though it would require significant changes to how lightsaber combat works as 1E light saber combat is less powerful than that of the later editions and it would require a GM who generously interprets (and sets low difficulties) for what a PC can do with their ability with the Force.

Quote from: Bren;1118274This varies somewhat by edition. However, actions are not taken at once, they are taken successively with all first actions being resolved before any second actions are resolved.

Ok, so this means that if you declare 3 actions, at -2D each, all the combatants do their first action, then you'd do the 2nd, and then the 3rd action, assuming no one else had 2nd actions to carry out. Doesn't this get really, really clunky? I see how it works well with the Reactions, I just cringe, because as it reads, it seems sluggish. Which is definitely not what I want for Star Wars. Is it just how it reads? How does it play out?  How many actions do PCs and NPCs take? Do Stormtroopers generally just take one action per round?

Quote2ER&E...was published prior to prequel films and to the D20 or Saga D20 editions of the rules. The fan made Revised and Updated rules does add some things to allow some of the abilities seen in the prequels often via taking something form one of the D20 Star Wars versions.

Personally I prefer (and have more extensively run and played) the second editions (2E or 2E R&E). I find the first edition a bit too broad and undefined for my preferences. I'm not as fond of the changes made in the fan-made REUP version.

The REUP version does seem to suffer from massive Force Power bloat.  For a short campaign, I would probably want something more abstract and malleable, sure.  And the prequels are not what I'm aiming for. So I guess the 2E or 2E R&E rules would be better for Force PCs and Force powers? What do they offer that isn't in REUP?

QuoteThe WEG rules were designed to allow a PC to (eventually) become a Force user with powers similar to what we see Luke use in the original trilogy and where the abilities of characters like Leia, Han, Chewie, and Lando are not completely overshadowed by a Jedi PC. And the WEG rules work well for that. The WEG rules are not designed to imitate the often much higher powered prequel trilogy with its jumping, spinning Yoda and its near absence of effective non-Force using heroes. Nor is it designed to imitate the activities or morality of the video games. Adapting the WEG rules to those higher powered settings will take some significant work. A looser Force system like that of first edition might be easier to adapt, though it would require significant changes to how lightsaber combat works as 1E light saber combat is less powerful than that of the later editions and it would require a GM who generously interprets (and sets low difficulties) for what a PC can do with their ability with the Force.

Alright. I'd like something more like Rebels than the Prequels (bleh) or the video games (which I have not seen nor played). KOTOR is right out. Should I be using the Force rules from 2E or 2E R&E? It seems like REUP would be out. I'm ok with that.

Quote from: S'mon;1118223Mini Six uses static defences, TN = Dice x 3 + pips. So eg Dodge 4D+2 gives a Static defence of (4x3)+2=14. Using this does not take an Action AFAICT, at any rate it seems a good house rule for a pulp-hero game.

I've been considering using a static defense TN for all the different defense skills. It would certainly make things move more quickly. How does a "Full Dodge" work? Is there such a thing at all when you have static TNs?

Quote from: Heavy Josh;1118317Ok, so this means that if you declare 3 actions, at -2D each, all the combatants do their first action, then you'd do the 2nd, and then the 3rd action, assuming no one else had 2nd actions to carry out. Doesn't this get really, really clunky? I see how it works well with the Reactions, I just cringe, because as it reads, it seems sluggish. Which is definitely not what I want for Star Wars. Is it just how it reads? How does it play out?  How many actions do PCs and NPCs take? Do Stormtroopers generally just take one action per round?

Yes that is how it works. In practice I haven't found it to be too clunky. At low levels PCs tend to only take 1 or 2 actions and most opponents take only 1 action. Typical stormtroopers usually only take 1 action. Usually I don't bother to have stormtroopers use reaction dodges. Their training is to shoot back or keep moving forward and rely on their armor (+STR) to stop the shot. (Sometimes it does.)

Keep in mind that you only need to separate the actions if something (like an NPC second or third action) is going to interrupt what the PC is trying to do with their 2nd or 3rd actions. The way it usually works in a simple fire fight is the side that has the initiative take their first shots (or actions). Some members of the second side who were shot at will choose a reaction dodge instead of their declared action.  Surviving members of the second side then get to shoot (or take their first action). PCs that get shot at probably take a reaction dodge and may decide to abort their remaining actions to avoid the MAPs on their dodge. Surviving PCs take any remaining declared actions. Rinse and repeat. Once any PC's opponent(s) have exhausted their actions the PC can just roll the rest of their actions without bothering to wait.

QuoteThe REUP version does seem to suffer from massive Force Power bloat.  For a short campaign, I would probably want something more abstract and malleable, sure.  And the prequels are not what I'm aiming for. So I guess the 2E or 2E R&E rules would be better for Force PCs and Force powers? What do they offer that isn't in REUP?

I haven't done a version by version comparison, but there isn't a much of anything that is in the second editions that isn't in REUP. There are just some things that change how they work from version to version, e.g.

• 2E had a different way of adjusting for scale. 2E uses die caps, while 2R&E and (I presume) REUP use add or subtract damage and resisting dice based on scale. The 2R&E method is simpler to use and to grasp.
• I think REUP uses the D6 Space rule of halving Strength damage from brawling attacks. This makes it harder for a Wookiee to literally pull someone's arms off. Whether that's an improvement or not is a matter of taste.

QuoteAlright. I'd like something more like Rebels than the Prequels (bleh) or the video games (which I have not seen nor played). KOTOR is right out. Should I be using the Force rules from 2E or 2E R&E? It seems like REUP would be out. I'm ok with that.

I don't think the Force rules change at all between 2E and 2R&E. What does change is the number of Force Powers increases in each version. 2ER&E adds in the Force Powers from all the prior supplements and makes a few minor changes (or possibly corrections) to some of the Force Powers. REUP keeps those and adds in fan made Force Powers with a number of them based on the prequels and/or D20 or SAGA abilities.
The number of powers available can be daunting both to the GM and to the player of a Jedi. On the other hand, players of a Jedi often really enjoy learning a new power, especially if the GM can tie that in to events that occurred and choices made during play. Any many of the powers nicely mimic what Luke does in the movies. Those are two of the reasons I like the second editions. I think most of the things that Kanen and Esra do are covered by existing Force Powers.

Note that by the Rules as Written in WEG using Alter to inflict damage via Telekinesis or some type of Force Push) incurs Dark Side points. Kanan and Ezra use those powers to toss people around (presumably inflicting some damage) so you will want to adjust how you give out DSPs for damaging via pushing people around via some type of Telekinesis or allow the Force User to inflict some sort of brawling temporary damage rather then killing damage. So the player can decide that their Force Push inflicts stun damage, i.e. it knocks the bad guys over and if they hit a wall they may be knocked out, but they aren't squashed flatter than a pancake and killed...unless the PC really wants to hurt their opponent.

The table of modifiers based on Proximity and Relationship also complicates your job as a GM and the players attempt to decide if the Jedi should even try to use a particular power without also using a Force Point to help ensure that they succeed in activating the power. This is one area where I would be inclined to simplify play by having the GM simply decide on a net difficulty number for successful use or activation of a power without stopping to consult a table of modifiers.

Quote from: Heavy Josh;1118318I've been considering using a static defense TN for all the different defense skills. It would certainly make things move more quickly. How does a "Full Dodge" work? Is there such a thing at all when you have static TNs?

Mini Six has a Full Dodge Action - you roll your Dodge skill, add 10. That becomes the minimum number to hit you vs all attacks. Seems a bit generous to me, but looks exactly like original WEG d6 SW (except that added your Dodge roll to the range TN).

It also has optional Dodge rolls combined with other actions like WEG d6 does, as an alternate combat system.

I like the Fast Static combat better. It has Dodge Block Parry & for damage Soak, all as attribute dice x3 plus pips, so Might 3D+2 > Soak 11. Armour adds to the Soak number.

1) Use WEG SW D6 1e. It's still the best.

2) Starting Force users are awesome because they can do stuff nobody else in the game can ever do! Do they need to blow a Force point when trying stuff because they have such low dice? Yeah, they're Luke in the first movie, not Obi-Wan. Luke couldn't fart right in the first film without blowing a Force point.

3) I agree with S'mon with the idea of importing stuff from Mini-Six. Anything that streamlines the gameplay to keep the action moving is going to benefit a SW game.