Greetings!

I certainly do love high culture, grand civilization, high magic, and all the wondrous possibilities that such embraces. However, in my own Thandor Campaign, I have had to restrain myself. It seems to me, much like for the fantastical to hold wonder, it likewise must be comparatively *rare*. Thus, I have many border fortresses that are harsh, muddy things, jagged, wooden palisade walls, uneven shack-like towers, gates of timbers and basic iron bands. Nothing too complex or sophisticated.

The communities, likewise, must be kept simple, harsh, and brutal. Lots of mud in the streets, open sewers, garbage piles being burned out in the open, soot everywhere, lots of wood's smoke. Animals being slaughtered and gutted in the open air. Forget plumbing and sewer systems. Water must be fetched from a well, and brought in by the bucket, by the sweat of your brow, or the sweat of a slave. Food preparation is also harsh, and simple. Rough. This all of course means than such closely packed human communities are just bubbling with horrid smells, fetid air, and lots of germs and disease. Shit and mud-covered peasants and slaves everywhere.

Keep modern cleanliness, and effortless labour for everything far away from the normal campaign. Make the players always dirty and smelly, and sweating for everything. Often cold and wet. It's always some horrid extreme of one kind or another. *Comfort* itself, *Convenience* is something they must achieve by hard efforts on their own, or through the use of slaves. Otherwise, life is full of hard work, sweating, and discomfort and struggle of all kinds, every fucking day.

These kinds of constants I have found have a dramatic impact on the player characters. It does help them get into *immersion* of being in a different mind-set, and out of the damned modernistic thinking. Interestingly, I have noticed that when the group has encountered Elves, and been embraced as guests in some luxurious, uber-Elven community--the players have a curiously medievalesque response, like in the myths, of being totally blown away, amazed, and enchanted. They don't want to return to living in gross, brutal human communities!:D It's funny, and fun, in highlighting such differences. It certainly makes their time spent visiting some Elven kingdom a cherished memory, and something they eagerly look forward to returning to in their journeys!

Beyond that, though, I think having a Dark Ages, brutal and harsh milieu provides a strong background foundation from which to base your campaigns. However, for it to really work though, the DM has to be relentless, and maintain it over time. You can't just showcase it for the opening session, and then rapidly segue into a Disney-fied medieval Europe. It's work and consciousness, to keep that environment constant and always present. That keeps the players also grounded in an "other thinking" instead of always walking around in their Disney-fied, Seattle 2020 mindset. It also makes for the exceptions in your campaigns to be really special and interesting, whether such are trips to elven kingdoms, great dwarven cities, Fantasy Rome, or some great and majestic cities of the East.

I also enjoy such rough foundations, because it allows you, the DM, to control things easier. Weapons, technology, plate armour, siege engines, warships, all kinds of things. You can introduce elements slower, more incrementally, instead of having a Forgotten Realms buffet where everything is available everywhere, and there are magic Walmarts in every neighborhood, and it seems like even life within smaller towns is much like the urban centers of Seattle 2020 Waterdeep or whatever. Such places seem right in line with our own modern metropolises. Some things I keep in mind in running my own campaigns to make them not like the modern world. I also play specific genres of world, period and cultural music to help everyone get into a different mind set. Slowly, gradually, I have seen progress in people's thinking. They seem a bit better equipped to approach problems and issues *differently*, if not always entirely from an ancient or medieval point of view, at least something that is a healthy mixture of good thinking that is different from this kind of pervasive modernistic thinking. That's really one of my little side-ambitions. A whole cloth ancient or medieval view is of course not possible, but mixing in some differences from our own modernistic thinking is certainly possible, and enjoyable.

Cheers my friends!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Excellent Shark! Awesome in fact, I like that kind of gaming. Especially for beginners, it gets them in the proper frame of mind.  You should claim that trademark before someone else does, "Dark Ages Authentic™" brought to you by Shark.

There were certainly grimy elements to the dark ages (and the middle ages), but it wasn't all grimy, you know.

While I think that description is very Simulationist and one I personally like, I have found most players want the "Disney" version.

You must be pretty lucky to find players that thrive on such. That can leave a mark on the game just by introducing drainage and soap.

I've lived in the Philippines for most of the past 8+ years. If I am looking to describe the true medieval experience, I can normally just describe any number of villages and/or slum areas near where I live. Water from a well? Exposed sewage? Weird little shrines? Rumours of monsters? Houses built from scrap timber? Yes to all of these, and more.

My players aren't in the Philippines. They don't know the source of my descriptions.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1118672I've lived in the Philippines for most of the past 8+ years. If I am looking to describe the true medieval experience, I can normally just describe any number of villages and/or slum areas near where I live. Water from a well? Exposed sewage? Weird little shrines? Rumours of monsters? Houses built from scrap timber? Yes to all of these, and more.

My players aren't in the Philippines. They don't know the source of my descriptions.

Ahh! The good 'ol days.

It's funny you bring this up - because I look back on all these elements to inform my own "Dark Ages" style "gritty" games. LITERALLY everything you describe is my childhood references.

And it's basically because that's how people lived. Like Pundit said, the Dark Ages were gritty, but it wasn't always gritty. Certainly less so now, in third world countries, but it depends. I think the reason why a lot of D&D players like the Disney-version is because they've been taught sub-consiously simply by living here in America/Europe to abhor what they consider extreme poverty. When to those living in it, or on its periphery - that's just life.

But living in that manner produces a lot of stuff that gamers today consider "adventure" by dint of the modern conveniences they take for granted. My uncles used to go out and "catch" dinner. We'd cook outside over open pits - my auntie farmed (and now my cousins STILL farm) pigs which they butcher right there in the "backyard". Water came from a well. Chickens, small garden, little bit of foraging - Not too different from "Ye Goode Olde Dayse" in a medieval society.

But all the folklore and supersition you'd have in European Dark Ages are very much part of the third-world consciousness. There is a LOT to pull from, even if you wanna Disney-fy it, to give some "verisimilitude" to the conceits of living in that era that you can find right now. Even in part of the US (and I'm sure in rural Europe).

@Scrivener - have you seen... THE LADY IN WHITE? There have been a couple of filipino/Malay folklore monsters that have made it into D&D like the Penanggalan - always a classic.

The primary "thing" about living in a predominantly agrarian fantasy world Dark Age is of course the danger-factor as prescribed by your setting conceits.

I mean you need to factor in available resources, climate, arable land, etc. Stuff most players *never* think about (nor should they) but you as the GM certainly should if you're sandboxing and want to give it that "feel".

In a European-style Temperate climate, while everyday necessities are similar to Scrivener's (and my own) sources we draw upon: the specifics are different because of the environment itself. Foraging in the Reikwald in Warhammer is a LOT different than foraging in a fantasy-Philippines equivalent Tropics. The supernatural elements alone will dictate a LOT of the grit-factor assuming they are prevalent in any real sense. Much less incursions from hostiles - be they human or otherwise.

I personally, even if I'm running the Realms, like to have my PC's discover all the sausage-making apparatus that allows kingdoms to operate. Yeah have them approach from downstream of the local river where they can smell the Tannery that provides all that sweet leather (which wasn't really used for "armor"). Nothing says civilization like huge vats of urine with skins and hides floating around in them wafting in your face after weeks in the field, covered with dirt, grime and the blood of your enemies, while sweating it back to the city. You haven't lived until you walk past the slaughter-house, or got stopped in your short-cut through the local hills by the local military because you've stumbled across a hidden goat-trail that leads to the Royal Smelting pits (or whatever). Where did you think all those gold pieces came from?

You can do gritty + Disney with just a bit of detail.

Quote from: tenbones;1118678The primary "thing" about living in a predominantly agrarian fantasy world Dark Age is of course the danger-factor as prescribed by your setting conceits.

I mean you need to factor in available resources, climate, arable land, etc. Stuff most players *never* think about (nor should they) but you as the GM certainly should if you're sandboxing and want to give it that "feel".

In a European-style Temperate climate, while everyday necessities are similar to Scrivener's (and my own) sources we draw upon: the specifics are different because of the environment itself. Foraging in the Reikwald in Warhammer is a LOT different than foraging in a fantasy-Philippines equivalent Tropics. The supernatural elements alone will dictate a LOT of the grit-factor assuming they are prevalent in any real sense. Much less incursions from hostiles - be they human or otherwise.

I personally, even if I'm running the Realms, like to have my PC's discover all the sausage-making apparatus that allows kingdoms to operate. Yeah have them approach from downstream of the local river where they can smell the Tannery that provides all that sweet leather (which wasn't really used for "armor"). Nothing says civilization like huge vats of urine with skins and hides floating around in them wafting in your face after weeks in the field, covered with dirt, grime and the blood of your enemies, while sweating it back to the city. You haven't lived until you walk past the slaughter-house, or got stopped in your short-cut through the local hills by the local military because you've stumbled across a hidden goat-trail that leads to the Royal Smelting pits (or whatever). Where did you think all those gold pieces came from?

You can do gritty + Disney with just a bit of detail.

One major challenge is to avoid "misery tourism", where the harsh and gritty elements hold the limelight without relief. They don't need to disappear completely, they simply need to fade into the background while adventure steps forward.

Quote from: RandyB;1118679One major challenge is to avoid "misery tourism", where the harsh and gritty elements hold the limelight without relief. They don't need to disappear completely, they simply need to fade into the background while adventure steps forward.

I'm not sure that's really necessary in Sandbox play? It's certainly an option - but everything is on the table (usually) in a sandbox.

The idea should be to illustrate the "hardship" AS NORMAL. It's an element of reality, to signal to the players who may/may not come from such conditions - *THIS* is the ground of living. What the PC's do about it, if anything, is on them. If a GM wants to go over the top with it and make it completely "unrealistically soul-crushing" without gameable options, they might well find their players not wanting to play in such circumstances. Or it may be an immature GM trying to be edgy for whatever reason.

I'm saying you CAN have you pie and eat it too. What is soul-crushing poverty to your average Seattle citizen is *everyday* life to others. That is gameable. It's not only gameable - it's fun because in its own way it divests you of your assumptions on what is "necessary" if the GM does it right. Now it shouldn't be taken as an example of "Because you can live like this - it's somehow noble", it's about what you via your character is willing to accept, because by and large, generally speaking, Adventurers *are* exceptional people.

Fixing those issues may seem insurmountable - but that's on the players to decide and the GM's capacity to answer that fundamental question in-game. I've had this very situation crop up where I lost a player because his attempts (ill conceived ones like trying to feed the hungry of the poor-quarter with a basket of 16-loaves of bread starting a riot. There were literally hundreds of starving people.) really dejected him because he felt his good intentions *should* have been sufficient (they were nowhere CLOSE - despite everyone in the party warning him of the outcome), as well as a few other situations like that. And yep - it's because he fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of living in such realities and WORSE - he didn't really want to engage with it on its own terms.

That's a big demarcation line for any campaign trying to emulate those realities. Sure we can Disneyland it up for real "tourists" of "fantasy". But Dark Ages style fantasy for some that want just a whiff of contextual "authenticity" has demands of its own. And that can be a big turnoff for players with unrealistic sensitivities or tastes.

TL/DR - "Misery Tourism" in gaming for me means - players who don't *really* want to engage with the realities of the setting conceits and would rather do so in unrealistic ways, vs. accepting it for what it is and being authentic in their reaction to it. And it may be disdainful, it may even be cruel - if that's what their characters are. It becomes touristy when the players themselves are "triggered" by it and play the cultural relativism card in and OUT of the game...

Quote from: tenbones;1118705I'm not sure that's really necessary in Sandbox play? It's certainly an option - but everything is on the table (usually) in a sandbox.

The idea should be to illustrate the "hardship" AS NORMAL. It's an element of reality, to signal to the players who may/may not come from such conditions - *THIS* is the ground of living. What the PC's do about it, if anything, is on them. If a GM wants to go over the top with it and make it completely "unrealistically soul-crushing" without gameable options, they might well find their players not wanting to play in such circumstances. Or it may be an immature GM trying to be edgy for whatever reason.

I'm saying you CAN have you pie and eat it too. What is soul-crushing poverty to your average Seattle citizen is *everyday* life to others. That is gameable. It's not only gameable - it's fun because in its own way it divests you of your assumptions on what is "necessary" if the GM does it right. Now it shouldn't be taken as an example of "Because you can live like this - it's somehow noble", it's about what you via your character is willing to accept, because by and large, generally speaking, Adventurers *are* exceptional people.

Fixing those issues may seem insurmountable - but that's on the players to decide and the GM's capacity to answer that fundamental question in-game. I've had this very situation crop up where I lost a player because his attempts (ill conceived ones like trying to feed the hungry of the poor-quarter with a basket of 16-loaves of bread starting a riot. There were literally hundreds of starving people.) really dejected him because he felt his good intentions *should* have been sufficient (they were nowhere CLOSE - despite everyone in the party warning him of the outcome), as well as a few other situations like that. And yep - it's because he fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of living in such realities and WORSE - he didn't really want to engage with it on its own terms.

That's a big demarcation line for any campaign trying to emulate those realities. Sure we can Disneyland it up for real "tourists" of "fantasy". But Dark Ages style fantasy for some that want just a whiff of contextual "authenticity" has demands of its own. And that can be a big turnoff for players with unrealistic sensitivities or tastes.

TL/DR - "Misery Tourism" in gaming for me means - players who don't *really* want to engage with the realities of the setting conceits and would rather do so in unrealistic ways, vs. accepting it for what it is and being authentic in their reaction to it. And it may be disdainful, it may even be cruel - if that's what their characters are. It becomes touristy when the players themselves are "triggered" by it and play the cultural relativism card in and OUT of the game...

I think you and I are basically in agreement, except in vocabulary. What I mean by "misery tourism" you nailed precisely as

Quote from: tenbones;1118705If a GM wants to go over the top with it and make it completely "unrealistically soul-crushing" without gameable options, they might well find their players not wanting to play in such circumstances. Or it may be an immature GM trying to be edgy for whatever reason.

The rest of your comments are excellent.

Quote from: RandyB;1118708I think you and I are basically in agreement, except in vocabulary. What I mean by "misery tourism" you nailed precisely as


The rest of your comments are excellent.

Ahh! Yeah I've played with GM's like that before... They're inversely naive about "gritty settings" for oddly similar reasons relating to never having "been there" and simply not giving it any thought. But you know, campaigns like that are hard to sustain when your GM's are not really able to make those conceits engaging, rather than just punishing for punishment's sake. They crash. Hopefully the GM learns.

This alludes to what Pundit said about "The Dark Ages wasn't all grimy..." there has to be elements of humanity we can engage with for it to have a ring of authenticity in a sandbox. Because ideally this is setting the standard for lowest common denominator for civilization. Otherwise it's not civilization at all, and we're really talking about savage tribalism too. And even THAT is totally gameable.

Quote from: tenbones;1118711Otherwise it's not civilization at all, and we're really talking about savage tribalism too. And even THAT is totally gameable.

Oh, definitely. And also just as jarring to those who want their tribals to look less "red of tooth and claw" and more "sapient bonobos".

Greetings!

Yes, of course there is also civilization and glory and joy in a Dark Ages milieu.

I just have this frustration with Disney-fying everything in game worlds, where everything seems to be pushed towards being 2020 Seattle.

A harsh and brutal world is far more interesting, and as Tenbones alludes to, *gameable* as well. Life and death hang by a thread. Opportunity, or a quick death are around every corner. For those able to travel, the world is brimming with possibilities.

I think players enjoy the challenge and experience, however vicariously, of looking into a different world, of imagining, of struggling.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1118726Greetings!

Yes, of course there is also civilization and glory and joy in a Dark Ages milieu.

I just have this frustration with Disney-fying everything in game worlds, where everything seems to be pushed towards being 2020 Seattle.

A harsh and brutal world is far more interesting, and as Tenbones alludes to, *gameable* as well. Life and death hang by a thread. Opportunity, or a quick death are around every corner. For those able to travel, the world is brimming with possibilities.

I think players enjoy the challenge and experience, however vicariously, of looking into a different world, of imagining, of struggling.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I'd like to see a Ravenloft domain that is literally patterned after 2020 Seattle.

Quote from: SHARK;1118726Greetings!

Yes, of course there is also civilization and glory and joy in a Dark Ages milieu.

I just have this frustration with Disney-fying everything in game worlds, where everything seems to be pushed towards being 2020 Seattle.

A harsh and brutal world is far more interesting, and as Tenbones alludes to, *gameable* as well. Life and death hang by a thread. Opportunity, or a quick death are around every corner. For those able to travel, the world is brimming with possibilities.

I think players enjoy the challenge and experience, however vicariously, of looking into a different world, of imagining, of struggling.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah... I find the Disney-fication thing is purely done because of lack of desire to keep things contextually "realistic". D&D obviously doesn't even try. It may have at one point, but the operative reality of living Gods, rampant access to magic, over any real expanse of time does not even *remotely* reflect their settings by implication. And "Dark Ages" style settings have a LOT of implication to them that are extremely alluring to me. By its very core conceit: it speaks of a fall from splendor, or the a higher standard - and we're now set in the aftermath of that reality. So the GM has to really think not just what the world is like *now* but what was it like *before* it slipped into this "Dark Age" - because depending on what you're working on, the time-differential between the rise and fall, one has to calculate the pseudo-history that explains why things are the way they are now.

I'm wrestling with that very problem in my current sci-fantasy project I'm working on. It's a beast to parse through to get tonally right, especially with the considerations of a fallen technological society into utter barbarism and cargo-cult levels (think Mad Max) of degeneration, now coming around to the beginnings the latter "dark age"... but everyone believes the tech is magic... sort of. If I just made it strictly fantasy... it might be a lot easier. But I'm too ambitious to do the obvious...

I totally agree having the world be dangerous makes "dark ages" play very alluring for certain players. Good settings that are well designed can spread that out by making civilization a *little* more easier to cling to - much like real life. But outside that civilization... it's Red in Tooth and Claw(tm). Nailing that tone with those conceits is the trick for getting players that aren't into "Grimdark" gaming to get their toe in and feel less uncomfortable.