Quote from: S'mon;1115782Well this is wrong,

Hmm, we have to dig down into the details, so fire up the spreadsheets*! I was taking a bear totem barbarian to effectively double hit points, but you are correct that since most of the damage is from weapons a berserker barbarian will do better by easily doubling the number of attacks while losing little since most of the pit fiend's damage is weapon type.

(* I'm tired and have had too many beers so there may be some calculation errors. I stand by the conclusions, though.)

Quotea Barb 20 normally has str 24 (and may have con 24), can reckless for easy hits and boost damage with polearm master ad greatweapon master. Obviously I assume a neutral ground dungeon encounter not ambush by flying pit fiend in open terrain. Totem barb halves fire damage while berserker can bonus attack and riposte for 4 attacks/round.

Barb 20 str 24 does +11 damage or +21 with a greatweapon atrack. Attack at +13 with advantage. Or greatweapon +8 advtg and damage +21. 3rd attack via berserk or polearm master. Halberd/glaive gives nice brutal crit damage too.

You're not going to boost much damage with polearm master if you're already going berserker. I'm willing to forego the "fly around and use FB to kill the barbarian who can do nothing but try to run away" strategy even though flying is a pretty common advantage for CR20 monsters. But you never addressed the hold monster issue. If the barbarian dump-statted Wisdom and didn't take Resilient-Wisdom, it's certain death; each round that the barbarian remains paralyzed is another set of critical hits, averaging more than half the barbarian's hit points per round if they all hit (and no reduction from rage). I calculate that you'd need a +10 save before 3 uses of hold monster and consequent critical hits will inflict an average of less than 300 hit points (a very high AC could mitigate this a little - a 24 AC from max dex, max con and a shield would stem a fourth of the critical hits, although that shield's not compatible with the weapons you suggest).

(Critical damage is not that significant; a little more than 1 point per attack when reckless, even with 2d12 extra, since it happens so rarely. With more dice, the pit fiend does better on critical damage.)

But where does the barbarian get all these increases and feats? If you start with point buy, you're going to need 4 of 5 ability score increases to reach 24 in both STR and CON, and that's starting from pretty high totals in either. (If you want to start with rolled ability scores that are suspiciously high, then I'm rolling hit points for the pit fiend and giving it correspondingly higher hit points.) You've also suggested Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master with the generally high ability scores. There's a 10th level human barbarian at https://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/trpg-resources/character-sheets who would need all three remaining ability score increases to get 24 STR and 24 CON and has no feats at 10th level; with only a +2 WIS save vs DC21, the resulting barbarian will probably be paralyzed for a long time.

If they trade blows and accept that every attack will hit (e.g., reckless attack), the berserker barbarian without Great Weapon Master will average 4 attacks of 17.5 damage and the pit fiend will average (after reductions) only 59, plus potentially 21 poison (CON save 21, so happens 1/3 of the time with max CON bonus). The pit fiend has more hit points unless the barbarian has Tough and at least 22 CON. Tweak the pit fiend to be resistant to non-magical weapons and the story is substantially different, but that should increase the CR (maybe not, since high level PCs would normally use few non-magical weapon attacks). Still, I'm satisfied that the pit fiend is winning most of the time with Hold Monster.

I considered using a balor for the resistance to all non-magical weapons, but it's only CR19; still, the barbarian would take 40 points of damage from successful balor attacks, and inflict less than that due to the damage reduction. (Slightly more if using great weapon master, and the balor might have less HP than the barbarian.)

QuoteBTW a pit fiend is only Large so can be grappled and knocked prone. The pf gets +8 on str checks while the barb has a minimum floor of 24 on athletics rolls as well as +13 athletics.

Hmm, so larger creatures can't automatically break free of grapples. I had thought the pit fiend was huge but I was apparently thinking of the balor's size. OK, that's some good rule lawyering but you're not grappling with your great weapon. I don't think supersizing the pit fiend to huge with no other changes is going to change its CR (specifically, not increasing the size of its hit dice). Definitely Indomitable Might is as broken as Reliable Talent for high level rogues, and maybe more so as this example indicates. Barbarian still loses to Hold Monster.

Nobody should trust S'mon's estimates of how tough high level characters are in 5e. He previously presented a barbarian with multiple epic boons as "merely" 20th level, I believe that he has previously said he houserules to give PCs proficiency in every saving throw, and he's giving benefits in this example that can't possibly all apply (numerous feats and maximum ability scores, or grappling and using a two handed weapon).

Quote from: rawma;1115952I believe that he has previously said he houserules to give PCs proficiency in every saving throw

Not in my current campaign - I did that in my first 5e game with no feats & multiclassing and low magic. My current games use Feats (most are still no Multiclassing) and is pretty much RAW, with a few tweaks like standing from prone gives an opp attack, and I cap d20 die bonus (eg to-hit) at +20, capping target numbers eg AC at 30.

It is not hard to get STR from 16 at 1st to 20>24 at 20th while also having Feats. You get 5 ability score improvements 1-20 so my point buy human Barbarian who started with STR 16 CON 16 at 1st could actually have got to STR 24 CON 24 at 20th and still had room for a Feat! But starting STR 16 CON 14 is more common IME. Anyway CON 24 at 20th is nice for the AC & hp but not vital, I see it in my Featless game, but less when there are Feats.

Level 20 Barbarians have Infinite Rage and can remain raging while 'Held'. In fact Raging while Held kicks in at level 15 Persistent Rage.

Grappling does need a free hand but is a good way to lock down Large & smaller foes. Then hit them with a longsword.

Hold Monster DC 21 3/day does seem like a great way to take out a lone PC without a good WIS save. Because it needs Concentration it is much weaker vs 2 PCs, but great vs solo PCs. I can definitely see the MM Pit Fiend using that and potentially grinding the Barbarian down.

I definitely find that in 5e mind control effects are the Achilles Heel of lone warrior-type PCs. My current group includes a Paladin with the save aura bonus so much less of an issue.

When I was running some solo or nearly solo games with a lone high level berserker barbarian (with magic items), at 19th he defeated an Empyrean with AC 27 and doubled attacks, ca CR 25, though the weapon Stun effect nearly did for him and it was a bit of a fluke. At 20th he defeated a CR 21 Lich, that was a tough battle but there were a lot of minions on both sides too. He then defeated a CR 21 ancient black dragon, which was notably easy since the Fear effect doesn't work on Berserkers. (But I have seen badly built and less effective/impressive Tier IV Barbarian PCs too, this guy was notably effective.)

I have used the CR 23 Kraken several times vs Tier IV  & level 20 parties and it is a bit weak, the last time I used a Kraken with x2 attacks, lightning storm everyone, 400 hp and AC 20, that was a reasonable/moderate encounter. The RAW Kraken only has a DPR of around 146 hp (4 tentacle & 3 lightning storm), spread across several PCs, which is far too low IME. Doubling that makes it a moderate threat to a 4-PC level 20 party without Epic Boons.

Quote from: rawma;1115952Nobody should trust S'mon's estimates of how tough high level characters are in 5e.

I think I'm a pretty typical GM, neither Monty Haul nor Killer GM, and I run a lot of high level 5e. So I think people can trust me to recount my actual play experience and find that it will tally pretty well with what they'll find if they run/play a lot of high level 5e. At any rate they can trust me better than they can trust people who haven't run 5e at Tier IV or level 20.

Quote from: S'mon;1115975It is not hard to get STR from 16 at 1st to 20>24 at 20th while also having Feats. You get 5 ability score improvements 1-20 so my point buy human Barbarian who started with STR 16 CON 16 at 1st could actually have got to STR 24 CON 24 at 20th and still had room for a Feat! But starting STR 16 CON 14 is more common IME. Anyway CON 24 at 20th is nice for the AC & hp but not vital, I see it in my Featless game, but less when there are Feats.

I believe I accurately presented this situation; my barbarian (only tier 2) is at 20 STR, 16 CON and 16 DEX, from point buy as a variant human. A combat monster for his level, aiming for STR 24 and CON 24 and DEX 18, but never going to succeed with those mental saves -- that is what allies are for.

QuoteLevel 20 Barbarians have Infinite Rage and can remain raging while 'Held'. In fact Raging while Held kicks in at level 15 Persistent Rage.

Hmm, that's true; I thought incapacitated ended it but does not. The critical damage is still pretty substantial, but I'm not going to revise the spreadsheet; I'm still pretty sure that the barbarian will never survive three hold persons without having taken the feat to get proficiency in wisdom saves.

QuoteGrappling does need a free hand but is a good way to lock down Large & smaller foes. Then hit them with a longsword.

Choose one strategy before you declare me wrong, then. No great weapon master damage. (I am disturbed to discover that a creature that can easily carry a human barbarian cannot stand up while being grappled after being knocked down; the breaking grapple for free that the Grappler feat originally implied is too much, but you've all but pinned a Large creature without that feat. As I said, Reliable Talent and Indomitable might are fairly broken.)

QuoteHold Monster DC 21 3/day does seem like a great way to take out a lone PC without a good WIS save. Because it needs Concentration it is much weaker vs 2 PCs, but great vs solo PCs. I can definitely see the MM Pit Fiend using that and potentially grinding the Barbarian down.

The discussion was one on one, but I should note that the same barbarian is unlikely to break concentration for a creature with a +13 CON save - either needing a critical or a good roll with great weapon master (to get at least 30 points of damage and give any chance of failing the concentration saving throw).

QuoteI definitely find that in 5e mind control effects are the Achilles Heel of lone warrior-type PCs. My current group includes a Paladin with the save aura bonus so much less of an issue.

I had a large number of Yuan-ti in a 3rd tier module, and they were mostly thwarted by clustering around such paladins. The flanking rogue got feared and near the end the flying wizard was suggested into helping the Yuan-ti escape (necessary for some to escape to set up the next module, as they had to escape with documents). Generally a difficult time if you don't bring along a charismatic paladin at high level.

QuoteWhen I was running some solo or nearly solo games with a lone high level berserker barbarian (with magic items), at 19th he defeated an Empyrean with AC 27 and doubled attacks, ca CR 25, though the weapon Stun effect nearly did for him and it was a bit of a fluke. At 20th he defeated a CR 21 Lich, that was a tough battle but there were a lot of minions on both sides too. He then defeated a CR 21 ancient black dragon, which was notably easy since the Fear effect doesn't work on Berserkers. (But I have seen badly built and less effective/impressive Tier IV Barbarian PCs too, this guy was notably effective.)

I have used the CR 23 Kraken several times vs Tier IV  & level 20 parties and it is a bit weak, the last time I used a Kraken with x2 attacks, lightning storm everyone, 400 hp and AC 20, that was a reasonable/moderate encounter. The RAW Kraken only has a DPR of around 146 hp (4 tentacle & 3 lightning storm), spread across several PCs, which is far too low IME. Doubling that makes it a moderate threat to a 4-PC level 20 party without Epic Boons.

Even running at 2nd and 3rd tier, I've given high CR opponents much higher than average hit points (and always enough minions to sidetrack some of the PCs and assist to give advantage). But magic items can make up for a number of missing levels, and CRs don't seem to be designed with even modest magic items in mind.

Quote from: S'mon;1115976I think I'm a pretty typical GM, neither Monty Haul nor Killer GM, and I run a lot of high level 5e. So I think people can trust me to recount my actual play experience and find that it will tally pretty well with what they'll find if they run/play a lot of high level 5e. At any rate they can trust me better than they can trust people who haven't run 5e at Tier IV or level 20.

I haven't run for any 20th level characters, and I do get some of the details wrong even a lower levels (like grappling rules and unconscious vs incapacitated to end rage, and doubtless many others), yet I observe that my evaluation in this case was more accurate than yours. Go figure.

Quote from: rawma;1116014I haven't run for any 20th level characters, and I do get some of the details wrong even a lower levels (like grappling rules and unconscious vs incapacitated to end rage, and doubtless many others), yet I observe that my evaluation in this case was more accurate than yours. Go figure.

I observe that your observation is probably less valuable than my observation, for the reason stated.

So Magic Items as Class Balance is not good. Did we get to that conclusion yet?

Quote from: tenbones;1116076So Magic Items as Class Balance is not good. Did we get to that conclusion yet?

I think this is a self-evident conclusion anyone who's ever played RPGs would inherently know. Except then we have things like HERO...

Quote from: tenbones;1116076So Magic Items as Class Balance is not good. Did we get to that conclusion yet?

That's true, but there's also other reasons why carrying a wheelbarrow of magic items is not actually as fun as people think it is.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1116178That's true, but there's also other reasons why carrying a wheelbarrow of magic items is not actually as fun as people think it is.

Monard has related some of that from playing D&D and Tekumel. Sometimes the group would be waylayed by bandits or militia/revenue types who take all the items they looted. Or a heavy cut of said loot.

Having alot of magic items, depending on the setting, can attract alot of unwanted attention. Collectors, crooks, rivals, challengers, etc. Though in Forgotten Realms or Eberron probably wouldnt draw as much notice as those settings seem much higher on the item proliferation scale.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1116178That's true, but there's also other reasons why carrying a wheelbarrow of magic items is not actually as fun as people think it is.

One of my players years ago created this axiom "You get more magic items adventuring by claiming the loot off of your dead party members than killing Dragons."

You're not wrong. After a long campaign - he counted 42 magic items on his 12th level character, most of which he kept in a Portable Hole (another item he scavenged off the body of another PC).

Yup, party members are a major source of recycling.

Quote from: S'mon;1116016I observe that your observation is probably less valuable than my observation, for the reason stated.

You ignored the explanation of why your original observation was incorrect, and repeated your incorrect observation; that's the hallmark of someone whose observations are not valuable, regardless of experience.

Quote from: rawma;1116503You ignored the explanation of why your original observation was incorrect, and repeated your incorrect observation; that's the hallmark of someone whose observations are not valuable, regardless of experience.

Well done, you win! Be sure to reply to this post so you get the last post & thus your triumph will be complete!

Quote from: S'mon;1116512Well done, you win! Be sure to reply to this post so you get the last post & thus your triumph will be complete!

Greetings!

Well said, my friend!:D *Raises mug of coffee in salute*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Omega;1115825I hit on this in another thread. Too many seem to complain about only the numbers, not the actual items. For example in 5e a probably fair chunk of the "magic items" that might be found in the course of a campaign tends to be taken up by potions and scrolls.

I will note here that Decent Into Avernus offers up no less than FOUR Artifacts, in what appears to be a sub-15 level campaign. I'll list them.

The Hand of Vecna
An Orb of Dragonkind
The Sword of Zariel (which is written up in the module, but is totes legit an artifact)
The Shield of the Hidden Lord (which... is actually downgraded from a proper artifact for some reason from prior editions. Note that the players have this one (a sentient fireball spewing shield) by level 3 or 4 or so...).

And aside from the Sword of Zariel, which is the goddamn macguffin of the whole campaign, these artifacts are just randomly placed where-ever.  YOu know, some rando mini-boss with the hand of Vecna, the Orb is just lying around so the players can trade it for a potion (I'm not even kidding...), and as I noted the Shield is unrelated 'extra' treasure/sub-plot bullshit that literally falls into the players lap at the end of the first 'arc' of the campaign... though yes, downgraded.

Out of the Abyss pulls a similar stunt with the Dawnbringer, which is 'called' an artifact level Sun-Sword, but admittedly it IS a bit weak to be a proper artifact, so really just a legendary sentient sun sword (in teh underdark) more or less lying around for sub-fifth level players to find in an unrelated side encounter.

5e is NOT skimping on handing out artifacts and legendary magic items in their published modules. Not by half.