Quote from: HappyDaze;1115109Ah,  but in 5e each bandit can carry > 150 lbs. before being encumbered in the least!

On foot or on horse?

Quote from: Elfdart;1115326On foot or on horse?

That's what a Strength 10 individual can carry on foot and still move unencumbered. The formula is very straightforward: Strength x 15 lbs.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1113505If the minimum necessary defenses exceed the maximum justified defenses, then shouldn't the settlement simply not exist?

This is a late reply, so sorry, but no. There are ample historical examples of cities and towns that were destroyed and rebuilt over and over again.

Often, the reason is simple geography. If you have a natural port, or the intersection of two rivers, or even just really nice weather, that is always going to be a good place to build a settlement.

Large bands of orcs that burn towns and villages to the ground are always going to be rare, because they have to keep moving on to the next target in order to keep going. If they run out of targets, they'll fight among themselves for the scraps, and the band will self-destruct.  Or they'll run into a king with a real army, and that will be the end of them.

After a piece of prime real estate lies vacant for five years, someone is going to come around and say "this place looks good!"

Quote from: Lurkndog;1115358This is a late reply, so sorry, but no. There are ample historical examples of cities and towns that were destroyed and rebuilt over and over again.

Often, the reason is simple geography. If you have a natural port, or the intersection of two rivers, or even just really nice weather, that is always going to be a good place to build a settlement.

Large bands of orcs that burn towns and villages to the ground are always going to be rare, because they have to keep moving on to the next target in order to keep going. If they run out of targets, they'll fight among themselves for the scraps, and the band will self-destruct.  Or they'll run into a king with a real army, and that will be the end of them.

After a piece of prime real estate lies vacant for five years, someone is going to come around and say "this place looks good!"

Wouldn't those factors increase the maximum justified defense? Is it cheaper to build a crap town and just rebuild it over and over again rather than building something that can survive attacks? This is similar to the varying views on how to build in hurricane/typhoon prone areas. Some people want to build lasting, hurricane-proof (or as close as they can get) structures at great cost while others go for light, cheap, and replaceable shacks.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1115358This is a late reply, so sorry, but no. There are ample historical examples of cities and towns that were destroyed and rebuilt over and over again.

Often, the reason is simple geography. If you have a natural port, or the intersection of two rivers, or even just really nice weather, that is always going to be a good place to build a settlement.

Large bands of orcs that burn towns and villages to the ground are always going to be rare, because they have to keep moving on to the next target in order to keep going. If they run out of targets, they'll fight among themselves for the scraps, and the band will self-destruct.  Or they'll run into a king with a real army, and that will be the end of them.

After a piece of prime real estate lies vacant for five years, someone is going to come around and say "this place looks good!"

A town being attacked doesn't mean it has to get wiped out (especially if the aim of the attack is raiding). Also not every period in history is like the middle ages.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1115330That's what a Strength 10 individual can carry on foot and still move unencumbered. The formula is very straightforward: Strength x 15 lbs.

That's quite... geneous.

Quote from: Elfdart;1115377That's quite... geneous.

No shit. I was quite surprised the first time I DM'd for a group where all of the characters were Strength 8 and I figured they would suffer for it when it came to carrying loot. Nope. The base rules (there is a more complex variant) allow each of them to hop, skip, and jump around freely while carrying up to 120 lbs. I've traveled with a 40-50 lb. pack on my back, and sometimes doubled-up and carried my wife's pack across my chest. It balances alright, and I can walk with it no problem, but acrobatics or melee fighting with both packs (or three packs for a 120 lb, load) would be quite a different story. But D&D encumbrance isn't meant to be even remotely realistic.

Quote from: Elfdart;1115377That's quite... geneous.

Quote from: D&D Player's Basic RulesThe rules for lifting and carrying are intentionally simple.
Here is a variant if you are looking for more detailed rules for determining how a character is hindered by the weight of equipment.
...
If you carry weight in excess of 5 times your Strength score, you are encumbered, which means your speed drops by 10 feet.

So 50 pounds for a strength 10 character; over 10 times strength for heavily encumbered with minus 20 feet movement and disadvantage on all physical ability based rolls. The rules alluded to in the previous post are a (generous) simplification for groups who mostly don't care about encumbrance, but still want some limit to rule out abusively extreme cases.

Quote from: Elfdart;1115377That's quite... geneous.

Welcome to D&D for Generation Z, where everybody gets a level just for participating.  
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Take a look at the history of the border reivers of the English-Scottish border.  Most of the people built quick and cheap, and hid away, possibly in one of the hopefully nearby tower homes, which few could ever afford to build, when the reivers came.

Quote from: Franky;1115389Welcome to D&D for Generation Z, where everybody gets a level just for participating.

With regard to how much characters can carry? :confused:

OD&D listed weights in gold pieces; with a man weighing 1750, we set that at 10 per pound (5e has lighter coins, 50 per pound). Weights of equipment listed for armor and weapons are similar at that rate between OD&D and 5e, with OD&D a little heavier, but the only other weight given is "Miscellaneous Equipment (rope, spikes, bags, etc.)" at 80 (8 lbs). That's ridiculously low weight by 5e standards, where a torch weighs 1 lb, a spike is 1/4 lb, silk rope is 5 lbs (hempen is 10 lbs), and a sack is 1/2 lb.

I already posted the limits for the variant encumbrance rules in 5e: for strength 10, unencumbered up to 50 lbs, then encumbered (-10 feet move) up to 100 lbs, then heavily encumbered (-20 feet move, disadvantage on all saves, ability checks and attack rolls based on strength, dexterity or constitution) up to 150 lbs (the maximum the character can carry), or movement of 5 feet while pushing or dragging up to 300 lbs.

In OD&D, the rules were: light foot movement (12") up to 750 (75 lbs), heavy foot movement (9") up to 1000 (100 lbs), armored foot movement (6") up to 1500 (150 lbs) and half normal movement (3") up to 3000 (300 lbs). No adjustment for strength, although the Greyhawk supplement added a table for that (with 7-9 being normal): a character with +1 to hit/+1 damage (16 strength) added 150 (15 lbs) to unencumbered limit, +2/+2 (17 strength) added 300 (30 lbs), +3/+3 (18/51-75 strength) added 600 (60 lbs), and the highest strength (18/00) added 1200 (120 lbs); but a 3 strength only subtracted 100 (10 lbs).

The simplified rule for groups that didn't want to add up weights carefully and which I saw a lot in OD&D days was unarmored/leather 12" move, chain 9" move and plate 6" move; drag large amounts of treasure at a speed (measured in wandering monsters rather than feet) with amounts and speed determined by the DM (who might resort to adding up weights carefully).

I realize that there's a lot of hatred against newer editions; but maybe you should instead complain about things you don't like that actually differ instead of stuff that's pretty similar.

"Weights" in D&D for any version have never been exactly "weight".  Instead, they are a combination of weight and awkwardness, accounting for the difficulty in carrying the thing.  It's one of the reasons that weapons "weigh" too much compared to reality.

The simplified 5E defaults are generous, but not nearly as much as one would think once the above is taken into account.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1115420"Weights" in D&D for any version have never been exactly "weight".  Instead, they are a combination of weight and awkwardness, accounting for the difficulty in carrying the thing.  It's one of the reasons that weapons "weigh" too much compared to reality.

The simplified 5E defaults are generous, but not nearly as much as one would think once the above is taken into account.

While that would favor OD&D for using an abstract and largely undefined weight, as opposed to 5e using an apparently real world weight, my point was that OD&D and 5e variant encumbrance were similar in complexity, effect and the difficulty the player characters might face, and that in practice some OD&D campaigns used a simplified version of the original encumbrance rules.

Given that OD&D incorporated some elements from Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom, we can't even be sure that the force of gravity was consistent with real world Earth.

Quote from: rawma;1115446While that would favor OD&D for using an abstract and largely undefined weight, as opposed to 5e using an apparently real world weight, my point was that OD&D and 5e variant encumbrance were similar in complexity, effect and the difficulty the player characters might face, and that in practice some OD&D campaigns used a simplified version of the original encumbrance rules.

Given that OD&D incorporated some elements from Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom, we can't even be sure that the force of gravity was consistent with real world Earth.

I was more supporting your point than otherwise.  5E doesn't use real world weights, either.  They are closer than some of the earlier versions, but still off.  None of it matters, because as you say, all it does is provide a system to eyeball an encumbrance to keep the worst offenders away.  

We had a little misunderstanding in our game last week.  Some of the players thought "javelins" were apparently more like big darts than small spears.  Another player asked me how many he had.  My standard answer is 3, because of the bulk.  He wanted to have 5 because he had found some.  Fine, no problem.  I'm not quibbling over a couple of javelins, especially for a strong character.  Turns out one of the other players thought his character had 17 javelins.  No.  You can have 5 also.

That's the actual encumbrance system we use at the table:  Does your stuff pass the GM bullshit test, taking into account a generous estimate for what a D&D character that is a little over the top can carry?  You can have all that stuff.  

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1115482I was more supporting your point than otherwise.

Oh, sorry for getting defensive. 5e could do better at explaining its assumptions there.

The only more accurate alternative to abstract measure of bulk and weight combined would be to give accurate weights but have a separate scale of bulk/awkwardness to total. I do not think I have ever seen a game that went that far.

Quote from: rawma;1115523The only more accurate alternative to abstract measure of bulk and weight combined would be to give accurate weights but have a separate scale of bulk/awkwardness to total. I do not think I have ever seen a game that went that far.

AD&D 2nd Player's Options: Skills & Powers added optional rules for Bulk. They were kinda hidden in the Weapon Proficiency & Mastery chapter, but I was able to find them eventually.

Quote from: Player's Options: Skills & PowersRecording Bulk (Optional Rule)
In addition to weight, the items of equipment are given a bulk rating--an expansion of the earlier categories S, M and L. The bulk ratings are separate from weight, and represent how much space each object takes up.

Small Size (S) = 0, 1, 2 bulk points
Medium Size (M) = 3, 4, 5 bulk points
Large Size (L) = 6* or more bulk points
_{*Some large objects, particularly weapons, will actually have lower bulk points than 6. Since the weapon size is primarily a factor of length, these items can be transported with relative ease.}

Players who want the added realism can keep track of how many points of bulk they are carrying. The rule is especially useful for planning a trading caravan and calculating how many goods an individual porter or beast of burden can carry. Vessels such as packs and pouches are limited in how much bulk they can carry:

Backpacks can vary in size, and they can hold an amount of bulk equal to a character's Strength score.
Belt pouches can hold up to 3 bulk points. A single character can wear no more than two belt pouches.
Saddlebags (horse or mule) can hold up to 40 bulk points, and each animal carries two saddlebags. The capacities of some other animals include (per saddle-bad): dog=8; donkey/burro=30; camel=100; elephant=200.

Effects of Bulk
A human character can carry an amount of bulk equal to his Strength/Stamina score without suffering any ill effects. If he tries to carry more bulk than his score allows, he suffers a penalty in encumbrance class. For example, if Blutar, with a Strength/Stamina of 17, is loaded down with 20 bulk points of light material, his encumbrance might only be Light, but for game purposes it is treated as Moderate.

Smaller characters can carry less than their Strength/Stamina score in bulk before they suffer the encumbrance penalty as follows:

Halflings and gnomes can carry 1/2 their Str/Stamina score in bulk.
Elves can carry their Strength/Stamina -3 in bulk points.
Dwarves can carry their Strength/Stamina -1

A character's weapon does not count towards his bulk rating, though a shield does. Armor is not counted as bulk, but it has the effect of lowering the total bulk the character could otherwise bear. See the equipment tables to determine the capacity penalties for each type of armor.

No character can carry more than twice his Strength/Stamina score in bulk.

And it has a bunch of equipment tables for weapons, armor and miscellaneous items that's too much to type out, but you get the idea. Basically Leather Armor has 1 Bulk, other light armors and chain have 2, most medium armor have 3, lighter plate armor have 4, Field Plate 5 and Full Plate 6.