Il take a well executed classic trope then a bland deconstruction or subversion any-day.

People only care about the subversion but not the quality of the work after the subversion. Thats why so many modern Disney films have "Subversive" villains that have the screen presence of a paper bag.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106453Fantasy tropes, sci-fi tropes, etc. Do you like 'subverted' expectations, like the dragon who abducts the princess is actually a good guy trying to save her from something? Or play it straight, the dragon is a bad guy who likes to eat princesses?
What are your favorite fictional tropes in RPGS, and your least favorite?

I like tropes, but a cleverly subverted trope can be amusing.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114181Il take a well executed classic trope then a bland deconstruction or subversion any-day.

People only care about the subversion but not the quality of the work after the subversion. Thats why so many modern Disney films have "Subversive" villains that have the screen presence of a paper bag.

I thought the Russian romantic fantasy film I Am Dragon did a decent job of both retelling the traditional dragon/princess story and flipping on its head.

I like any fantasy that isn't another uninspired clone of Tolkien. Norse and Slavic fantasy are a breath of fresh air despite their ancient origins.

Recently I watched the 1957 animated adaptation of The Snow Queen (the 90s dub with Kirsten Dunst) and I liked the fairy tale feel. Despite being 175 years old this year it still feels a lot more progressive than a lot of modern "progressive" media. The cast is almost entirely female and represent a broad spectrum of backgrounds, so I'm bummed we never got any kind of big Disney movie which gave each of them detailed histories and personalities. (Frozen doesn't count.)

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114187(Frozen doesn't count.)

I actually grew up with that Fairytale in its original dub (though from what I understand the original tale was more religious and was adapted to the USSR). Originally I was quite upset as to what I saw a bastardization of a really good story by Disney.
But then I realized that's mostly what Disney does. So no-Frozen DOES count. Frozen counts PERFECTLY.
I find progressivism values other cultures only in the way it can change things. Only in what reflections of itself it can see in these stories. It picks and chooses like a tourist at a foreign bouffe and feels pleased with itself for being so accepting and inclusive.
I don't trust progressives with my culture.

That's not to say Slavic stories aren't filled with clever flip-ups either (This is a "Modern" for the time retelling of a classic executed well). But As much as the Knight and Dragon are "Stock" elements of Tolkien-esque fantasy, so are characters like Baba Yaga, Koschei the Deathless, and other such elements of Slavic culture.

The modern way I see of adapting such characters is "What if Baba Yaga was the good one all along and people just called her bad names because they didn't like how she was ugly."

I don't mind tropes. I think my only real issue with them is the same issue I have with creative exercises in general; my mind tends to gravitate towards particular types of tropes/conceits, and when I get stuck in a creative rut my brain tends to produce the same types of things over and over again. That is part of why I find random generators for NPCs, plot hooks, etc. so useful is that they help my brain break out into a broader variety of inspirations than I would normally produce just working off my own ideas. Some of these may end up being tropes themselves (just a different type from what my brain usually shoots to), or a cleverly subversive thing I stumble on to by accident.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1114197That is part of why I find random generators for NPCs, plot hooks, etc. so useful is that they help my brain break out into a broader variety of inspirations than I would normally produce just working off my own ideas. Some of these may end up being tropes themselves (just a different type from what my brain usually shoots to), or a cleverly subversive thing I stumble on to by accident.

I sometimes use random generators for this purpose as well. Often I don't even use the thing I roll, I just roll a couple of times to get my brain started and then I head off in whatever direction the flow of ideas takes me. If need more ideas I may roll again, or revisit old ideas to review them in a new light.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114192I actually grew up with that Fairytale in its original dub (though from what I understand the original tale was more religious and was adapted to the USSR). Originally I was quite upset as to what I saw a bastardization of a really good story by Disney.
But then I realized that's mostly what Disney does. So no-Frozen DOES count. Frozen counts PERFECTLY.
I find progressivism values other cultures only in the way it can change things. Only in what reflections of itself it can see in these stories. It picks and chooses like a tourist at a foreign bouffe and feels pleased with itself for being so accepting and inclusive.
I don't trust progressives with my culture.

What I meant is that Frozen is actually less feminist than The Snow Queen, precisely because it throws the original story aside in favor of an original story that mocks Disney cliches and uses pop-feminism in a cash grab.

Gerda is a feminist heroine who is still feminine. Her story is uniquely feminine rather than just taking a traditional masculine protagonist and giving him a sex change. The Robber Girl and her mother are the only action girls in the original story and the fact that they are strong independent women is never remarked upon. Hans just took it for granted than women could do all those things in his story, and that's more feminist than a lot of modern lunacy.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114192That's not to say Slavic stories aren't filled with clever flip-ups either (This is a "Modern" for the time retelling of a classic executed well). But As much as the Knight and Dragon are "Stock" elements of Tolkien-esque fantasy, so are characters like Baba Yaga, Koschei the Deathless, and other such elements of Slavic culture.

The modern way I see of adapting such characters is "What if Baba Yaga was the good one all along and people just called her bad names because they didn't like how she was ugly."

I agree that this is absurd. Baba Yaga isn't generically evil IIRC, but more like the Fair Folk. Aren't there several stories where she serves a fairy godmother role to the heroine?

Quote from: VisionStorm;1114200I sometimes use random generators for this purpose as well. Often I don't even use the thing I roll, I just roll a couple of times to get my brain started and then I head off in whatever direction the flow of ideas takes me. If need more ideas I may roll again, or revisit old ideas to review them in a new light.

Exactly! This is how I use them as well, I rarely treat generators as gospel but rather a set of dynamic inspirational tools. For similar reasons I like to use a lot of wildly different generators from different authors rather than sticking to a single set (unless I'm striking for a particular theme), because the writers of generators also usually have some creative biases of their own; in addition, when generators are presented in different formats it forces my brain to engage more actively in interpretation.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114206What I meant is that Frozen is actually less feminist than The Snow Queen, precisely because it throws the original story aside in favor of an original story that mocks Disney cliches and uses pop-feminism in a cash grab.

Original story? I grew up on the The Snow Queen, it's one of the 2 or 3 most influential stories of my childhood. When I watched Frozen, I fully expected it to be based on that story, but it wasn't. Aside from the cold weather, I couldn't name a single character or plot element the two stories have in common. No mirror, no splinters, no devil, no children, no sleigh, no garden, and no robbers. Instead there were super-powers, cutesy trolls, and a pair of princesses.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114206I agree that this is absurd. Baba Yaga isn't generically evil IIRC, but more like the Fair Folk. Aren't there several stories where she serves a fairy godmother role to the heroine?

She's a cannibal witch. She's indisputably evil. But she's also very protective of innocents, keeps promises, and even helps heroes. That's not a contradiction in any way, because until alignment came along nobody thought evil meant literally every aspect of an evil person's character had to be the opposite of good.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114187I thought the Russian romantic fantasy film I Am Dragon did a decent job of both retelling the traditional dragon/princess story and flipping on its head.

That film was an unexpected pleasure.

Quote from: Pat;1114228She's a cannibal witch. She's indisputably evil. But she's also very protective of innocents, keeps promises, and even helps heroes. That's not a contradiction in any way, because until alignment came along nobody thought evil meant literally every aspect of an evil person's character had to be the opposite of good.

It is certainly possible to treat Alignment as being monolithic and on the other hand how many babies can you eat before it cancels out all of the promise keeping that you do?

Quote from: Shasarak;1114238It is certainly possible to treat Alignment as being monolithic and on the other hand how many babies can you eat before it cancels out all of the promise keeping that you do?

One is usually enough.

I think you missed the point, which is that evil can have redeeming characteristics, and still be unambiguously evil. Evil outside of comedy or trite morality plays is never unremittingly wicked in every possible aspect, and the tendency to treat it that way is one of the less salubrious tendencies of the modern world. Nor do any positive, humanizing elements excuse the evil.

Quote from: Pat;1114251One is usually enough.

I think you missed the point, which is that evil can have redeem characteristics, and still be unambiguously evil. Evil outside of comedy or trite morality plays is never unremittingly wicked in every possible aspect, and the tendency to treat it that way is one of the less salubrious tendencies of the modern world. Nor do any positive, humanizing elements excuse the evil.

If you want to make an interesting evil character in the game then they need to be more evil, to really accent that evil and be larger then life otherwise they may as well be evil cultist number 3.

Quote from: Shasarak;1114253If you want to make an interesting evil character in the game then they need to be more evil, to really accent that evil and be larger then life otherwise they may as well be evil cultist number 3.

That's false. They just need a personality and motivation.

And Baba Yaga eats people, so I don't see how your statement has anything to do with anything I've said.

Anything can be considered a trope, and TvTropes is kind of corrosive in the snarking sense that "ah ha! It's been done before so it's a trope so it's stupid!" Does TvTropes have a trope of that?

I like it when a few details paint a vivid picture in everyone's mind. It's cool that you can say "Mad Max meets He-Man" and people can be 80% on the same page. Or at least common expectations without having to spell everything out.

I'm personally a sucker for ancient, long-gone civilizations, ruins, collapses, ancient magic fading away, etc. - anything that indicates cyclical history. I never liked Dwarves except in the Hobbit, and as far as games go, only liked the Elf in the Heroquest board game.

My setting used to have Dwelfings: short, hairy, pointed eared axe-throwers, who live in wooded hills near mountains who rarely adventure (though are always on one) despite being of crudely conceived ancient lineage.

Quote from: Pat;1114228She's a cannibal witch. She's indisputably evil. But she's also very protective of innocents, keeps promises, and even helps heroes. That's not a contradiction in any way, because until alignment came along nobody thought evil meant literally every aspect of an evil person's character had to be the opposite of good.

I'm sure that describes most gods and demons from mythology. The gods have terrible personality flaws that result in wars and genocides. There are plenty of times when man-eating monsters show mercy to humans ("hero raised by ogres" is a old trope noted by folklorists).

It's almost like they reflect how multi-faceted, introspective, violent, self-destructive, guilt-ridden, and self-loathing humans can be.