Quote from: TJS;1106494Fuck'em.

Just another word for cliche.

Slightly disagree with some nuance. Cliche are when you're using a trope in a lazy manner that actually has the opposite effect of a trope.

A well executed trope serves the larger narrative and is almost invisible.

The problem is most people don't know how to do that and it ends up being cliche in execution. This is where the danger-signs for those seeking to subvert a trope often end up making things like The Last Jedi... by not fully understanding what a Trope is and what it's used for, end up creating something horrifying that isn't even cliche... it's just bad.

I like "tropes" when they are relatively close to the source, so for instance Tolkien popularized the fantasy world containing dwarves, elves, hobbits, and orcs. So I prefer such games to be based on Tolkien, not simply "borrowing" the same tropes over and over. I also wouldn't mind a Norse game, in which elves and dwarves are more mysterious, like nature spirits.

Quote from: tenbones;1107210Slightly disagree with some nuance. Cliche are when you're using a trope in a lazy manner that actually has the opposite effect of a trope.

A well executed trope serves the larger narrative and is almost invisible.

The problem is most people don't know how to do that and it ends up being cliche in execution. This is where the danger-signs for those seeking to subvert a trope often end up making things like The Last Jedi... by not fully understanding what a Trope is and what it's used for, end up creating something horrifying that isn't even cliche... it's just bad.

This inspired a thought: do you think it would be fair to say that instances of tropes sit somewhere on a continuum between archetype and cliche?

Something like:

Archetype <---------------------> Trope <---------------------> Cliche

If a trope is too specific/reused/overapplied, you get something like this:

Archetype <------------------------------------------> Trope <--> Cliche

If a trope is too generic/abstract/underspecified, you get something like this:

Archetype <--> Trope <------------------------------------------> Cliche

Actually, it's probably at least 2D with archetype and cliche being surface area sections of the graph (hazarding a guess: specificity and reuse on the axes)?

Though I don't know how to plot what TLJ did on the graph. Large, smoldering hole?

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1107221This inspired a thought: do you think it would be fair to say that instances of tropes sit somewhere on a continuum between archetype and cliche?

Something like:

Archetype <---------------------> Trope <---------------------> Cliche

If a trope is too specific/reused/overapplied, you get something like this:

Archetype <------------------------------------------> Trope <--> Cliche

If a trope is too generic/abstract/underspecified, you get something like this:

Archetype <--> Trope <------------------------------------------> Cliche

Actually, it's probably at least 2D with archetype and cliche being surface area sections of the graph (hazarding a guess: specificity and reuse on the axes)?

Though I don't know how to plot what TLJ did on the graph. Large, smoldering hole?

So... "tropes" are contextual to a whole host of things. They're in many ways mimetic and change as the perceptions and fads of a culture changes - and they tend to be (but not always) specific to a genre. Archetypes do not change - but post-modernists will tell you otherwise (and they would be wrong - their *perspectives* of the Archetype changes, but usually that's just their egos jacking themselves off). So your first diagram is probably the most neutral and safest bet *depending* on the person engaging in the trope itself.

The *ideal* of course is to use archetypal ideas in novel ways and thus engage in a trope in a manner that is subtly guiding the consumer of your work into the Archetypal form. Brave creators aware of the nuances of Archetype and popular tropes within a genre will attempt to really dazzle you and sometimes go full deconstruction-mode with a trope... and that's dangerous and rarely works.

I was literally having this discussion last night with my wife about Fantasy tropes, and how now a lot of SJW tropes are now filtering into popular Fantasy - Grrl Power, Incompetent Men are big ones showing up in historically non-SJW author's work (looking at you Joe Abercrombie).

And yes - once you do it enough, or it's done with zero novelty or thought, it goes full cliche'-mode.

If you want an example of a well done deconstruction of a Trope - like the Heroes Journey, I'd point immediately at Martin's Jaime Lannister character arc in the GoT books. An arguably *rare* example where an entire genre trope of modern Fantasy is deconstructed and executed with (and this is where the arguable part comes in) spectacular results - is R. Scott Bakker's "Prince of Nothing" series (and it's followup trilogy - the "Aspect Emperor").

It's *all* about the execution and sticking the landing. That really hard to do and that's why tropes exist. It's easier to just use a trope creatively rather than trying to mess with the whole the machine. It takes a rare bird with *really* strong skills and understanding of the tropes to break them successfully and not look like a total jackass.

I don't mind tropes, I consider them shorthand for a whole slew of details I won't have to detail. Like, saying 'the creepy old castle' paints a picture better than me going into minutae about cobwebs, candelabras, decaying tapestries (though those things might still come up in specific situations).
Subversion doesn't bother me either, but I prefer the Lovecraftian sort vs. the Scooby Doo type. Lovecraft gives you a creepy old house and a backstory that suggests a vampire... THEN he pulls out the rug by giving you something much weirder. It's still a weird scary thing, just not the one you expected.
What I don't want is the thing where it all looks creepy/spooky and I'm expecing ghosts... and it turns out its all a ruse by a bunch of gangsters to scare people away from their hideout.

Big Al would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Quote from: tenbones;1107231So... "tropes" are contextual to a whole host of things. They're in many ways mimetic and change as the perceptions and fads of a culture changes - and they tend to be (but not always) specific to a genre. Archetypes do not change - but post-modernists will tell you otherwise (and they would be wrong - their *perspectives* of the Archetype changes, but usually that's just their egos jacking themselves off). So your first diagram is probably the most neutral and safest bet *depending* on the person engaging in the trope itself.

The *ideal* of course is to use archetypal ideas in novel ways and thus engage in a trope in a manner that is subtly guiding the consumer of your work into the Archetypal form. Brave creators aware of the nuances of Archetype and popular tropes within a genre will attempt to really dazzle you and sometimes go full deconstruction-mode with a trope... and that's dangerous and rarely works.

That all makes sense to me.

Quote from: tenbones;1107231I was literally having this discussion last night with my wife about Fantasy tropes, and how now a lot of SJW tropes are now filtering into popular Fantasy - Grrl Power, Incompetent Men are big ones showing up in historically non-SJW author's work (looking at you Joe Abercrombie).

Oh no. I haven't had a chance to read Joe Abercrombie yet... sigh.

Quote from: tenbones;1107231And yes - once you do it enough, or it's done with zero novelty or thought, it goes full cliche'-mode.

If you want an example of a well done deconstruction of a Trope - like the Heroes Journey, I'd point immediately at Martin's Jaime Lannister character arc in the GoT books. An arguably *rare* example where an entire genre trope of modern Fantasy is deconstructed and executed with (and this is where the arguable part comes in) spectacular results - is R. Scott Bakker's "Prince of Nothing" series (and it's followup trilogy - the "Aspect Emperor").

YES! Jaime Lannister is a character I *love* and when I met him I expected I'd always hate him. That's a great example.

I haven't read "Prince of Nothing", I will check it out, thanks!

Quote from: TJS;1106494Fuck'em.

Just another word for cliche.

The late, great Alexander Cockburn used to have a semi-regular feature in his column called Tumbril Time. For those who don't want to look it up right now, a tumbril is a wooden cart used to haul horseshit, as well as enemies of the French Revolution to the guillotine. Cockburn gave trite, hackneyed terms and phrases a quick show trial then loaded them on the tumbril to be hauled to the scaffold. At first glance the word trope would seem an ideal candidate for the guillotine, but after seeing every person, place, thing or idea being dubbed a trope, I think any crowd of upstanding citizens would dispense with the show trial and the dung cart and simply tear trope to pieces with their bare hands in the city square.

Quote from: tenbones;1107231I was literally having this discussion last night with my wife about Fantasy tropes, and how now a lot of SJW tropes are now filtering into popular Fantasy - Grrl Power, Incompetent Men are big ones showing up in historically non-SJW author's work (looking at you Joe Abercrombie).

And yes - once you do it enough, or it's done with zero novelty or thought, it goes full cliche'-mode.

How so Tenbones? he was on my to read list though not so sure now as when they include SJW style elements it usually makes a story worse not better.

Charles Stross Laundry novels have been hit with a not so healthy does of SJWism so to speak. Warning potential spoiler ahead for one novel.

At one point in the The Rhesus Chart Warning Spolier:  Bob love interest Dominique walks in and catches Bob talking to an ex-girlfriend and proceeds to take out her Erich Zann violin to attack them both simply because the ex-girlfriend was wearing a one of bo sweathers and nothing else. No "omg she is home too early" or any other form of cheating just wearing a frigging sweater and the love interest goes all psycho. I repeat the main character talking to his ex while they are having breakfest. So right their I was worried for the next novel. Which has Girl power and incompetent male characters written all over it and where Stross is shown to be firmly drinking the SJW kool-aid.

In The Annihilation Score which is centered around Dominique and it all about her and how it's ok for her to cheat on Bob because he has been neglecting her so go Girl power I guess. The character receives training yet is also suddenly super competent and of course even if we never saw it in previous novels somehow has been suffering misogyny from other men. Apparently bob is suddenly very my much in denial about their relationship which up until this novel we saw zero, less than zero in the negatives issues about their relationship in the previous novels. Where Bob is very much the loving, caring husband. It make me hate the character so much as she became a favorite to misandrist piece of crap. Warning spoiler yeah boo hoo poor BOB is neglecting you maybe it has to do with the character being possessed by a Lovecraftian horror which made him scream non-stop until his vocal cords gave out and even then he kept screaming to needing about enough medication to be sedated that would knock out 1-2 stables worth of horses. While needing months of recovery both physically and mentally. The way the character is written he probably will never be 100%. Poor Dominique is so neglected. It pissed me off so much I sold off the entire series. If one most go full SJW in their writings do so. Jesus Christ don't ruin the entire series to do so. Maybe if someone can tell me the next novel after this one is better I may buy into the series again if not Charles SJW Stross can go fuck himself.

I don't mind tropes that much especially if the serve a purpose.

Too many fantasy rpgs have humanity as being the top dog, most powerful race in the setting. With no advantage beyond being able to reproduce as rabbits and a drive to succeed. As if none of the other fantasy races never wan to get ahead.

Quote from: sureshot;1114095How so Tenbones?

Well the protagonist in Best Serve Cold is a woman. Maybe that was too much?

Quote from: Bren;1114097Well the protagonist in Best Serve Cold is a woman. Maybe that was too much?

That would not bother me at all. Just as long as the other male characters are not suddenly useless compared to the female character.

Quote from: Pat;1107111How do you feel about prepositions? Wrenches? The concept of a genre? That's how I feel about tropes. They're tools and convenient ways to organize, describe, and convey material, that's all. *snipped for brevity*

Pretty much this specifically and the post in general. I may dislike certain specific tropes or the implementation of them, but saying they should die in a fire is like saying paragraphs should be unceremoniously dumped into the depths of the sea just cuz you don't like walls of text--the problem is people's writing style, not the idea of grouping text into blocks, which is almost an inevitable end result of writing.

Regarding tropes in RPGs, I tend to prefer classical or literary fantasy tropes over derivative D&D tropes. For example, I don't like the idea that "clerics/priests heal; wizards destroy" or "clerics/priests wear armor (which they usually don't IRL)" cuz these are strictly "It's a game" conventions born out of D&D specifically, rather than the universal order of things or the way things "should" work. Granted, these are more like world-building and game design concerns rather than stuff directly linked to adventure design and if you're playing D&D or derivative games you're pretty much stuck with them, but I don't operate under those assumptions when designing my own worlds or systems.

Quote from: sureshot;1114095How so Tenbones? he was on my to read list though not so sure now as when they include SJW style elements it usually makes a story worse not better.

Charles Stross Laundry novels have been hit with a not so healthy does of SJWism so to speak. Warning potential spoiler ahead for one novel.

Stross is a good example of the problem.  He is capable of writing a good story--strong narrative, interesting characters, some subtlety to the plot.  As soon as he starts in on his SJW stuff, all of his ability goes clean out the window.  Not to mention, that his brain also turns off completely.  It was so bad in one of his series that I didn't even take the books to a used book store.  Stopped mid book on the third one and tossed all three in the trash.  Won't even check his books out of the library now.

Tropes are my bread and butter. one of the most useful tools for building scenarios or stories. We love em because we know em. And subverting them is just as good.