Yeah, I am a fan of regional demographics too, Shark. A lot of that "bleeding edge" outlier stuff was solidly and explicitly under GM purview in TSR products, regardless of what anecdotes people recall at their table... we have the receipts (texts). That said, 5e tried explicitly stating that GM manages the table, too, but apparently "Optional Means Official" just like "Temporary Becomes Permanent." :rolleyes:

This is definitely a sub-cultural or generational issue, because I have seen its rise in WotC era D&D. And even though 5e tried to walk things back for this compromise edition, it is just ignored frequently, AL or not, IME. Not much you can do beyond run your own game and apply your own setting coherency.

And yes, the unusual feels special when it is rare. Almost definitional, yet here we are.

Quote from: SHARK;1113925The current state of 5E has arrived which as Bren details, made many 5E games so strange and goofy as to actually diffuse and fracture game play in many regards, at least for many "Old School" gamers. I certainly have experienced that sense of dissonance, as have friends of mine when we have played in Adventure League for example.

That has been my experience (which admittedly is limited) with Adventurer League play.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1113940That said, 5e tried explicitly stating that GM manages the table, too, but apparently "Optional Means Official" just like "Temporary Becomes Permanent." :rolleyes:

As I understand it, insofar as optional is allowed in Adventurer League play, optional is official.

Quote from: Shasarak;1113928Come on SHARK, these trends did not start in 3e.  How can you remember the Drow in Unearthed Arcana from ADnD published 1985 and then look me in the face and tell me honestly hand on heart that the Anime Zoo_toolbox started 15 years later with 3e.

Gary Gygax even had players in his campaign playing Balrog and Vampire characters and somehow I am supposed to believe that "real" DnD players only ever played white male human characters for thirty years until those dirty MtG people fucked it all up for everyone.

I don't have an issue with occasionally seeing a very unusual or weird character in play. My problem is when the majority of every party is composed of very unusual and weird characters or with that one player who will not ever play anything that isn't weird and out of place.

Gronan has mentioned that when he played OD&D infravision worked for monsters, but it didn't work for players because (as I understand it) that would eliminate part of the challenge and resource management of exploring underground. Clearly somewhere along the way that changed. In last night's session we had a party of five characters and every one had darkvision. As most of what we did was explore an evil underground temple that recently became active, not needing to use light sources made a big difference in our ability to sneak and how that adventure played out.

And in OD&D elves, dwarves, and hobbits (the species listed for use as player characters) each had limits on their level advancement.

Quote from: SHARK;1113931Nowadays, as I described in Adventurer's League, that spectrum has seemed to have swung to the opposite, favouring the Zoo-trainwreck characters. That's what I have seen, in Adventurer's League groups over many months.

Quote from: Bren;1113980That has been my experience (which admittedly is limited) with Adventurer League play.

As I understand it, insofar as optional is allowed in Adventurer League play, optional is official.

I don't have an issue with occasionally seeing a very unusual or weird character in play. My problem is when the majority of every party is composed of very unusual and weird characters or with that one player who will not ever play anything that isn't weird and out of place.

Beyond taking place in the Forgotten Realms (mostly) which is filled with all those weird races, Adventurers League actually restricts character choices from what are available in the official 5e books. The last 30 or so characters I ran for at conventions were almost all within the AD&D 1e races (there was a tabaxi and kenku pair, though, but none from Volo or other sources). Even without Arduin Grimoire, our OD&D campaign had green Martians, Vulcans, half-elves, Myrrhym, and even a large assortment of monster races from the reincarnation spell. And the Forgotten Realms seem a lot more consistent than the features ascribed to, say, Castle Greyhawk in OD&D.

QuoteGronan has mentioned that when he played OD&D infravision worked for monsters, but it didn't work for players because (as I understand it) that would eliminate part of the challenge and resource management of exploring underground. Clearly somewhere along the way that changed. In last night's session we had a party of five characters and every one had darkvision. As most of what we did was explore an evil underground temple that recently became active, not needing to use light sources made a big difference in our ability to sneak and how that adventure played out.

And in OD&D elves, dwarves, and hobbits (the species listed for use as player characters) each had limits on their level advancement.

In the original books, yes, only player characters (without infravision spell) could not see in the dark in the dungeon, and dungeon doors opened automatically for monsters unless held against them.

But elves and dwarves had infravision in the Greyhawk supplement, and non-humans had no limit as thieves (so I imagine any leader of those races in the usual D&D meritocracy would be a thief, or at least have thief as one of their classes). Note also that some later classes were human only but also had limits; I always guessed that was a divide between Gygax (favored more competent non-humans without level limits) and Arneson (favored humans and level limits even for some human only classes), but neither Gronan nor chirine ba kal ever gave any support for that speculation. (And Gygax did not change level limits much in AD&D).

Hm. This makes me wonder, where does a zoo-trainwreck begin and end?

In one of my settings, the following races are present and most are playable with proper justification (although humans are by far the dominant species and cultures, at least on the mainlands, and some of the below are quite rare insomuch as most people will live their entire lives never having seen one):

1. Humans
2. True elves or "Brinesouls," very rare as of the end of the vampire war.
3. Brine Devils or "Grindylow." Generally unplayable, tend to be evil. Saltwater-dwelling eel people / viper fish, opportunistic, aquatic telepathy and powerful shamanic magic traditions.
4. Hawkken or "Garuda," nomadic bird people communists.
5. Ents or "Firstmen." Reproduce by growing each other, rare, considered a delicacy in some regions and greatly fear herbivores.
6. Dorfs or "Stonechildren." Mysterious mute rock people responsible for many bizarre overnight geographical changes.
7. Vaesir / Vaesirians, precursor race (OK these are considered extinct).
8. Weavers or "Arachen," intelligent spiders that use pattern magic via web weaving.
9. Goblins. Usually encountered in civilized parts as slaves or indentured servants, often utilized in dangerous industrial settings.
10. Forktongues or "Ith'Liss" ('scaleskins' if you want to be rude about it), pretty much only found in hot climates such as the Ashuthari Glass Deserts or the Koganese jungles.
11. Mantids or "Kokoro." Basically Thri-Kreen.
12. Lillyworts or "Vodyanoi." Short, fat, freshwater-dwelling frogmen. Use "watercraeft," can make solid objects out of water
13. Ratfolk or "Skritt." Two variants, one evil-tending "tunnel skrit" (think rat-like Skaven but slightly less crazy), and "field Skritt" (closer to mice than rats).
14. Beastmen. (these are generally non-playable, being mostly insane mutant freaks warped by Blight)
15. Revenant Kings, powerful, well-preserved vampire liches which since their creation have managed to enslave the larger of the two elven isles and run a partially undead society all to themselves, having won the vampire war. Almost always unplayable. Practically all were originally elven; they enjoy "land hunts" for humanoids on the eastern coasts for sport, and due to their undead navy they are the only entities capable of sailing the icy northern seas and exploring the crystalline wastes.

These are not generally culturally homogenous, save for xenophobic/isolated ones like the Brinesouls. In cases where you find diverse races settled together, they will generally share many of the same cultural sensibilities unless they are migrants.

Now, just looking at the above list; FIFTEEEN RACES?! Probably looks like a zoo, except that generally you won't find many of them all in the same place breaking bread together outside of intensely urban metropolitan cities (and even then, often times non-standard groups for that region will be forced or shunned into ghettos) and again, many are quite rare in general or are very isolated.

In fact, I can think of only one instance where I had more than "just humans" or "humans, plus the odd Ent" or the like in the same party together. The human cultures in this setting have a great deal of variety from region to region, geography to geography, which I think helps a lot with the feeling of variety even within that single race. Too often I see settings where all humans are all equally and blandly/generically Western European-flavored.

Quote from: rawma;1114009Beyond taking place in the Forgotten Realms (mostly) which is filled with all those weird races, Adventurers League actually restricts character choices from what are available in the official 5e books.

How big a restriction is that though?  

QuoteEven without Arduin Grimoire, our OD&D campaign had green Martians, Vulcans, half-elves, Myrrhym, and even a large assortment of monster races from the reincarnation spell.

Ours did not.

QuoteAnd the Forgotten Realms seem a lot more consistent than the features ascribed to, say, Castle Greyhawk in OD&D.

Never used Greyhawk as a setting. It didn't really appeal. And by the time it was published everybody already had their own settings anyway.

Quote from: Shasarak;1113939SHARK there are a lot of things that you can lay the blame for at the feet of 3e and on the other hand it makes your argument look so much weaker when the things you blame it for just are not true.  If you look at just the core 3e rules then you only have the standard races Human, Elf, Half Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome and Half Orc.  Which one of those is the start of the trend of Zoo-trainwreck races?

If you want to complain about Adventurer's League then go ahead, not my circus, not my monkeys.  But for Gawds sake I have played Drow, Minotaur, Giff, Half-Giant and Thi-kreen characters that I can remember off the top of my head and none of them were 3e characters.  And for the DMs that want to play up their "realistic racist" game settings then just remember that my murder hobo characters get as much XP from your precious NPCs as they do from monsters so a mob of KKK villages is just a target rich environment with the added benefit that you dont need to poke around a trap filled dungeon.

Greetings!

Well, Shasarak, I am not making any kind of *argument*, my friend. I am making some observations, commentary, and sharing some experiences I have had--both back in the day, and currently. Again, as I mentioned, indeed, back in the day we had Zoo-trainwreck characters, but in my experience, they were a *minority* and their inclusion, as Opapajr made clear--was strictly under the DM's approval and supervision. Currently, in many groups I have been in, with Adventurer's League, the *majority* of such parties have been filled with Zoo-freaktrain characters, with normal humans, elves, or dwarves being a noticeable minority.

That dynamic has, in my view, a huge impact on the campaign milieu, that embracing a standard historical and mythological campaign generally avoids. It plays with believability, theology, story development, demographics, and all kinds of things besides I'm certainly overlooking.

Personally, I happen to really enjoy the occasional Zoo-freaktrain character, as i and Opapajr also noted, when such characters are rare in the campaign, they do become very unusual and interesting--and even *special*. When the whole world is full of Zoo-freaktrain characters, and embracing "Seattle 2019" flavour--there is much that is *LOST* from the DM, the players, and the campaign as a whole, in my view, whether people are entirely conscious of such loss or not.

Again, in my experience, I have played with the demographic dynamics through the years, and through various campaigns. For example, in 3E, there was a growing preference--pushed by a gazillion books with dozens of race and character options--where for some time it seemed like everyone was playing some kind of uber half-elf, half-dragon *Vampire/Demon/Angel/Elemental* misfit character. The scope and impact of such on a campaign--then, as similar to the same things now--can be very significant.

In contrast, when I began a new 5E campaign where the party was five humans, 1 elf and 1 dwarf, and all were normal, straight classes--the whole campaign played again, distinctly differently.

I have experienced very different dynamics in such campaigns. I KNOW there are differences and huge changes in campaign dynamics. You do not have to agree with me, Shasarak, or anyone else, for that matter. However, it does not change the fact that I have seen and experienced such different campaign dynamics from embracing one kind of group or another.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Opaopajr;1113940Yeah, I am a fan of regional demographics too, Shark. A lot of that "bleeding edge" outlier stuff was solidly and explicitly under GM purview in TSR products, regardless of what anecdotes people recall at their table... we have the receipts (texts). That said, 5e tried explicitly stating that GM manages the table, too, but apparently "Optional Means Official" just like "Temporary Becomes Permanent." :rolleyes:

This is definitely a sub-cultural or generational issue, because I have seen its rise in WotC era D&D. And even though 5e tried to walk things back for this compromise edition, it is just ignored frequently, AL or not, IME. Not much you can do beyond run your own game and apply your own setting coherency.

And yes, the unusual feels special when it is rare. Almost definitional, yet here we are.

Greetings!

Good to see you, my friend! Am I really making any sense, Opaopajr? Sometimes I wonder what the fuck I'm talking about, like I must have been living in some kind of bubble.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1114042I have experienced very different dynamics in such campaigns. I KNOW there are differences and huge changes in campaign dynamics. You do not have to agree with me, Shasarak, or anyone else, for that matter. However, it does not change the fact that I have seen and experienced such different campaign dynamics from embracing one kind of group or another.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So what I am hearing is that in your home games mostly everyone plays humans and then when you played in Adventurer League you noticed that other people mostly play different races.  

Well of course different groups have different ways to play.  The real reason for that though is that some people have Fluoride added to their water and some dont.

Quote from: Bren;1113980As I understand it, insofar as optional is allowed in Adventurer League play, optional is official.

Not really. 5e AL actually disallows certain options and some things that are standard are disallowed.

The one that comes to mind right off is that in AL you use stat array. You can not use point by or roll stats.
Alignment is restricted. Most, or all, Evil alignment choices are not allowed.
Another is you are limited to two books. The PHB+1

Quote from: Omega;1114048

Quote from: Bren;1113980As I understand it, insofar as optional is allowed in Adventurer League play, optional is official.

Not really. 5e AL actually disallows certain options and some things that are standard are disallowed.

:confused: You are not contradicting with what I said.

Quote from: SHARK;1114043Greetings!

Good to see you, my friend! Am I really making any sense, Opaopajr? Sometimes I wonder what the fuck I'm talking about, like I must have been living in some kind of bubble.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes you are, even to this "Left-Coast-istan, commie-pinko, poo-dodging fart-whiffing, post-modern nihilist, those-who-can't grievance-studies peddler." ( I'll be any and all the epithets we throw out here. Kumbaya. I'll be anyone's SJW Pumpkin Spice Savanarola "burning (straw)man." )

In my eye, this is an issue of the young novice wanting to do all the things, immediately, in one plate (or on one canvas). To chase the brash and shocking, strike out different and define self against the past... basically to be a teenager in spirit. There is also a disconnect to history, just as there is a disconnect to most disciplines of late, due to technology's instant gratification short-circuiting the process of curiosity and learning beyond the spectacle. And that Teenage Rebellion with "Cult of the Spectacle" does a feedback loop on social media, leading to ecstatic 'Bonfires of the Vanities'.

Which, in the RPG hobby, means 'subverting expectations' while 'not being teh n00b'... leading to what you, Bren, I and others have already seen (again in Org Play and off). It is an incoherent fictional mishmash married to min-maxing for that last +1 to-hit and damage per round. And when questioned, it becomes defensive, castigating critics as "you just don't understand! :mad:" In a word it's... youth.

There's a deep gamer isolation (anomie) out there which I don't remember having when growing up, where technology has insulated us from encounters that challenge our views. (Maybe having to go outside to go to the arcade, b-ball court, or skatepark is part of our elderly advantage? ) And yet a lot of the kids do get over wanting to "eat the whole buffet in one sitting." But it takes time because it seems tech (or maybe our culture's obsession with safety? too much scheduled extra curriculars; lack of unstructured play?) has created a social development delay, IMHO.

I am happy they are tabletop gaming now, and with such enthusiasm. It's not what playstyle I now want, but it may be the start of what they need -- even if to get it out of their system in college what we already did in grade and high school. So much of genre entertainment, from comics, video games, to music, movies, etc., has been incorporated into megacorps and homogenized into Disney-Channel safe-spaces that I think kids are starved for authenticity and rebellion -- yet may not really know how, let alone why. Anime-Zoo (Panty) Explosion! tm might actually be their first expressive finger-paint paintings outside such structured (and sheltered?) childhoods. You gotta start somewhere to find your voice.

Quote from: Bren;1114053:confused: You are not contradicting with what I said.

Actually. Yes I am. Just not 100% as you seem to want.
Try again please.
What options are used? Stat Array. Gender Fluid Elf blessing, reskinning a race, race variants, tortles. A quick section from the Player Guide.

Quote• Variant Human Traits (PHB)
• Half-Elf and Tiefling Variants (SCAG/ToF)
• Option: Human Languages (SCAG)
• Blessing of Corellon (ToF)
NOTE: Races with flight at 1st level, and options from any resource other than those listed above (such as the Dungeon Master's Guide, Guild Adept products, or Unearthed Arcana articles) aren't available without specific campaign documentation (i.e., certs, etc.).

It is unclear if these count towards the PHB+1 rule or not. Seems like not, but Tortles are noted as being part of Xanithar so maybee yes?

The structuring reminds me somewhat of how the RPGA ran their various "Living" settings like Ravens Bluff or Living Jungle. (the only two I am familiar with.)

Quote from: Bren;1114032How big a restriction is that though?

Very little; AL is (mostly) in the Forgotten Realms where all of the races described exist. It excludes races that start with a flying speed. Also excludes any options in the DMG (like the death domain cleric, but also no guns, etc). They also don't allow mixing books beyond the PHB, so you couldn't take a race from one and a class path or spells from another. You can reskin a race if the DM allows it; mechanically the same as an existing race but described as whatever (the only time I ever saw this was a mind flayer which used the half-elf rules; I wouldn't have allowed it if I had been DM).

QuoteOurs did not.

OK, OK. I'm not claiming that ours was representative of most groups, but I am also pretty sure neither of our groups was unique. And as I observed, AL play today is not always filled with the weirdest races; human remains quite popular, and races like firbolgs and tortles only made a brief splash when their rules came out (tabaxi seems to be the only non-PHB race that is still consistently popular, either because players like cat people or for the broken double-move that recharges by not moving in a turn). OD&D explicitly provided for any race the DM chose to allow; that's not the case in AL, despite reskinning, and not really in the 5e rules that I have seen. While every later version of D&D seems to have restricted reincarnation to coming back as a humanoid, OD&D says roll at random on the Character Alignment table under the reincarnated character's alignment; hello, centaurs, giants, pixies and more!

QuoteNever used Greyhawk as a setting. It didn't really appeal. And by the time it was published everybody already had their own settings anyway.

I never saw it as a published setting; I'm just referencing the things alluded to in OD&D rules (including, obviously, the Greyhawk supplement).

Quote from: Omega;1114065Actually. Yes I am. Just not 100% as you seem to want.

I said if an optional rule is allowed in AL play  then it is an official rule in AL play. You disagree with that? How, exactly?

QuoteTry again please.

Yes, why don't you.

QuoteThe structuring reminds me somewhat of how the RPGA ran their various "Living" settings like Ravens Bluff or Living Jungle. (the only two I am familiar with.)

Yes it seems to have similar issues.

Quote from: rawma;1114067Very little; AL is (mostly) in the Forgotten Realms where all of the races described exist.

That's the impression I've gotten from the parties I've been in and from some of their other PCs that players have described.

QuoteOK, OK. I'm not claiming that ours was representative of most groups, but I am also pretty sure neither of our groups was unique. And as I observed, AL play today is not always filled with the weirdest races...

I'm only going on what I've seen and heard from my fellow players. My sample size is very limited. And there certainly are some human PCs, but in that sample, one party has an elf, half-elf, half-drow, tabaxi, gnome, two humans, and one probably human who is a warlock of some kind who has darkvision and seems kind of like he is half-undead. (I don't know what his pact is. Seems fairly dark though he isn't evil.) The other party was a tiefling, a dwarf, and 3 gnomes -- no humans. The players who described other PCs they run/ran seemed to run about 4-1 nonhuman to human. But that sample could be skewed since many people are inclined to describe their more unusual PCs.

Quotethe only non-PHB race that is still consistently popular, either because players like cat people or for the broken double-move that recharges by not moving in a turn.

And they climb really well too, I think. Certainly better than my average strength rogue.

QuoteOD&D explicitly provided for any race the DM chose to allow; that's not the case in AL

I don't recall that OD&D explicitly provided for any race. It explicitly provided for humans, elves, dwarves, and hobbits. It didn't explicitly forbid any race though. OD&D was very much DIY. For example, although one of the wandering monster tables included martians, a la John Carter of Mars, there weren't any stats for Martians, Tharks, airships, or radium rifles. Creating that was left up to the DM. Although for a brief time you could by game rules for ERB's Mars. I believe that game eventually got pulled after a cease and desist from the lawyers representing the heirs of ERB or the owners of the publishing rights.

QuoteWhile every later version of D&D seems to have restricted reincarnation to coming back as a humanoid, OD&D says roll at random on the Character Alignment table under the reincarnated character's alignment; hello, centaurs, giants, pixies and more!

Why not play a bear? Sure your armor and weapons will need to be custom crafted, but your practically immune to bees and get to eat all that sweet, sweet honey.

QuoteI never saw it as a published setting; I'm just referencing the things alluded to in OD&D rules (including, obviously, the Greyhawk supplement).

There were some good things, some interesting things, and some crap things in Greyhawk. (The stat bonuses definitely promoted using alternate methods of rolling up PCs. Roll 4 dice and keep 3 was very popular.) As I recall, Blackmoor was mostly crap. The Temple of the Frog...what a waste of space. :rolleyes: