Quote from: ffilz;1113918Funny you should mention RQ because that's another game I love despite it's quirks.

Not surprising, since the system is mathematically quite elegant.  The chance to fumble is 5% of the chance to miss. The chance of a critical hit is 5% of the chance to hit. A special (extra damage) is 20% of the chance to hit. Since these are based on a formula (unlike some D20 systems where the chance to hit is always 5%, i.e. 20 on a D20, regardless of the chance to hit), those chances scale up and down with a character's skill.

QuoteI haven't run it at levels where the "I hit" "he parries" goes on ad infinitum, so that issue that some have raised with opposed rolls hasn't bothered me. It's also interesting to note that RQ definitely was an inspiration to Cold Iron (so was The Fantasy Trip - having started playing in a TFT game, I see spells that came over to Cold Iron almost without change...).

You can often avoid that problem by using levels of success e.g. a special hit against a normal parry = a normal hit. Where it becomes a real problem is with for characters with heavy armor augmented by protection spells. The passive armor defense may exceed the average damage an attacker can inflict. RQ3 introduced some additional damaging augmenting spells which would have helped had they not also dropped the limit on stacking for defensive spells. I suspect that tactically savvy and flexible parties would either use Countermagic to knock down the protection or just 15 minutes until the rune spells wear off.

What would have sped up the process would be a simple way to have a handful of rolls approximate the odds of someone scoring a hit that actually does some damage during that 15 minute period. I suppose I could build some calculations in Excel that would do that. But I haven't played/run Runequest much since the 1990s, so I'm probably too lazy to go to the effort. That's actually an example where I wouldn't mind needing to consult a fairly lengthy table. It wouldn't have to be used very often and when it did, it would save rolling out the 75 rounds that equal a 15 minute spell length.

The Fantasy Trip was pretty cool (those rules are in a box with the OD&D brown booklets), but TFT really required using a hex grid to get the tactical depth that the system needed and that allowed for proper differentiation between the various permutations of STR, DEX, INT and weapon and armor choices.. While moving in hexes and tracking facing was fun for arena combat using the Melee and Wizard rules that TFT grew out of, I find tracking movement and facing on a grid (square or hexagonal) is too detailed and just feels too board gamey for me. I don't want complete theater of the mind, but noting position and eyeballing movement on a map with or without a grid or even a rough sketch is enough detail for me.

Quote from: Bren;1113921Not surprising, since the system is mathematically quite elegant.  The chance to fumble is 5% of the chance to miss. The chance of a critical hit is 5% of the chance to hit. A special (extra damage) is 20% of the chance to hit. Since these are based on a formula (unlike some D20 systems where the chance to hit is always 5%, i.e. 20 on a D20, regardless of the chance to hit), those chances scale up and down with a character's skill.

Actually D&D 3.x critical is pretty elegant, if you roll a 20 on attack, roll again and if you succeed (hit) then a critical is scored, otherwise you hit anyway (20 always hits, which is the same as RQ 01-05 always hits). Another way of doing it that can be single roll, is roll two d20, designate one as the crit/fumble die. If you hit and the crit die is a 20, you crit. If you miss and the crit die is a 1 you fumble.

QuoteYou can often avoid that problem by using levels of success e.g. a special hit against a normal parry = a normal hit. Where it becomes a real problem is with for characters with heavy armor augmented by protection spells. The passive armor defense may exceed the average damage an attacker can inflict. RQ3 introduced some additional damaging augmenting spells which would have helped had they not also dropped the limit on stacking for defensive spells. I suspect that tactically savvy and flexible parties would either use Countermagic to knock down the protection or just 15 minutes until the rune spells wear off.

What would have sped up the process would be a simple way to have a handful of rolls approximate the odds of someone scoring a hit that actually does some damage during that 15 minute period. I suppose I could build some calculations in Excel that would do that. But I haven't played/run Runequest much since the 1990s, so I'm probably too lazy to go to the effort. That's actually an example where I wouldn't mind needing to consult a fairly lengthy table. It wouldn't have to be used very often and when it did, it would save rolling out the 75 rounds that equal a 15 minute spell length.

The Fantasy Trip was pretty cool (those rules are in a box with the OD&D brown booklets), but TFT really required using a hex grid to get the tactical depth that the system needed and that allowed for proper differentiation between the various permutations of STR, DEX, INT and weapon and armor choices.. While moving in hexes and tracking facing was fun for arena combat using the Melee and Wizard rules that TFT grew out of, I find tracking movement and facing on a grid (square or hexagonal) is too detailed and just feels too board gamey for me. I don't want complete theater of the mind, but noting position and eyeballing movement on a map with or without a grid or even a rough sketch is enough detail for me.

Since I mostly run RQ1, I never bought into the generalized special hits, and actually, I house ruled separate impale away (instead, impaling weapons crit with 10% instead of 5%). With my house rules, a crit is either half armor or double damage after armor.

Hmm, I COULD bring back the special though, not as do extra damage, but as bypasses a normal parry. And on the flip side, a special parry could turn a crit into a regular hit.

But man are we getting off topic :-) Good discussion though...

Quote from: RandyB;1113546Edition Wars.

Shut up and play what you like. Talk about how much fun it is.

"Some men, you just can't reach."

Edition purists are even worse:

Whiny Purist Bitch: But Keep On The Borderlands isn't an AD&D module!

Me: It is now.

Quote from: Bren;1113839I don't appreciate companies that invent mechanics just so they can sell me funny dice.

FFG's Star Wars RPG.

Is that still even in print? Seems like all talk of it just seemed to abruptly stop?

Quote from: Elfdart;1113945Edition purists are even worse:

Whiny Purist Bitch: But Keep On The Borderlands isn't an AD&D module!

Me: It is now.

Return to Keep on the Borderlands is a 2e module.

Quote from: Omega;1113960FFG's Star Wars RPG.

Is that still even in print? Seems like all talk of it just seemed to abruptly stop?

It was the last time I looked. I nabbed a few free adventures a while back in case I could adapt something to WEG D6 Star Wars. Since then I haven't been following.

Quote from: Omega;1113960FFG's Star Wars RPG.

Is that still even in print? Seems like all talk of it just seemed to abruptly stop?

It is still in print and has new materials announced. However, products for the last year have been from a combined line rather than their three lines. They are also pushing forward with Genesys.

Quote from: Elfdart;1113945Edition purists are even worse:

Whiny Purist Bitch: But Keep On The Borderlands isn't an AD&D module!

Me: It is now.

Concur, both in general and with your specific example. Every adventure is an example that you can use with or adapt to any rules you want.

Quote from: Elfdart;1113945Edition purists are even worse:

Whiny Purist Bitch: But Keep On The Borderlands isn't an AD&D module!

Me: It is now.

I never and still don't quite understand that kind of mindset. It's not as if edition ninjas are going to attack the game session and remove all later edition materials. Lately I'm tempted to look at some older modules for inspiration for an upcoming PF 1E or 2E D*&d (not sure which yet). It just boils to morons in the hobby wanting to draw lines in the sand when the majority of us are just going to walk up and kick the sand into their faces. While asking them to leave our games and never be asked back.

Quote from: Omega;1113960FFG's Star Wars RPG.

Is that still even in print? Seems like all talk of it just seemed to abruptly stop?

It is still going strong and popular. As unlike WEG who refused to really address and flaws of their version of Star Wars and decided to put the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of GMs , FFG did with their version. I'm not a fan of the dice and splitting the core across three books and a lack of PDFs for the rpg line. FFG seems to be doing a better job of managing Star WArs as an rpg. As to less releases going to their site they seem to have WAY too much on their plate right now as an rpg company. So no surprise as to less releases.

Going back to the OP. Rpg developers who refuse to fix common flaws of their rpgs and expect the fanbase to do it. No how about you fix your own rpg as it's not my job and I'm not getting paid to fix the flaws of an rpg. Fans who seem to think hosueruling should be the rule and not the exception. I pay to use RAW as much as possible if one selling point is houseruling say like too many fans do with Rifts and other Palladium rpgs my respose is "you can waste your time hosueruling" and walk away and play something else much better written and designed.

Companies who should know better than to promise less options in new material then do the opposite. Paizo stupidly did that at the start of PF 1E, essentially telling fans they would try not to release too many new options. It is a promise they could not keep and broke right away. Fans who dislike power creep or too many new options and think that rpg companies will not release new material. Why would anyone with 1/8th of brain cell actually believe that. Just flat out admit to releasing new material and those unhappy with it can go shop elsewhere.

New editions not a fan of them yet also not impressed with a fanbase who unless they are new to the hobby should now by now that almost any rpg even a favored one can and possibly will get a new edition. To think it won't happen given the current new edition train which seems to be popular in the hobby is being naive on purpose.

New weapons that are simply older designs with new art and the serial numbers filed off so to speaks. Rifts suffers particularly from this as many weapons have the same damage, ranges and sometimes even payload as older ones. As PB freelancers and Kevin don't really make an effort to make them really stand out. "Here is new railgun xyz." Me "works exactly like the old one in the core no thanks". Kevin and the freelancers had this weird idea not sure if they still do that BIG, HEAVY, UGLY, STURDY weapons were what the military types should be using in their rpg. If they actually talked to people who were in the army they want PORTABLE, LIGHT, STURDY. Why would the average person who is in any kind of army in rifts want to run with extra weight in body armor.

New editions are great if they just clean up erratta and maybe replace some of the worse art.  There's art that is important to the tone of the game, like William Keith's Traveller illustrations which are so evocative of a gritty, noir universe but there's usually pieces you can replace.  Minor rules tweaks that don't break backward compatability are fine as long as they actually fix a problem and aren't worse than the replaced rule.  But outside of that new editions are a terrible thing and a blight on the hobby.

Quote from: David Johansen;1113994New editions are great if they just clean up erratta and maybe replace some of the worse art.  There's art that is important to the tone of the game, like William Keith's Traveller illustrations which are so evocative of a gritty, noir universe but there's usually pieces you can replace.  Minor rules tweaks that don't break backward compatability are fine as long as they actually fix a problem and aren't worse than the replaced rule.  But outside of that new editions are a terrible thing and a blight on the hobby.

A clean up of errata and even replacing art isn't a new edition, it's just a revised printing. If I'm buying a new edition, I want something new and I'm not necessarily worried about backwards compatibility because I believe the new edition needs to stand on its own.

Quote from: sureshot;1113990Why would the average person who is in any kind of army in rifts want to run with extra weight in body armor.

Because SDC beings, like humans, are not able to stand up to MDC damage sources without armor, and on the flipside MDC armor renders most SDC damage sources laughable. From there it becomes an arms race.

I mean, in the real world, a crappy knock-off, under-powered, ill-repaired pistol can kill you, but it also might not. Depends where you get hit, luck, etc. In Rifts, the crappiest crap MDC pistol that ever existed is still going to obliterate you. A lot of people house-ruled the MDC to SDC conversion ratio down by a factor or two, and others used the "instant kill by MDC makes you roll on a Grievous Injury table" method to try to mitigate the problem, but as written, the MDC/SDC disparity is horrific, and you can understand the armor and arms race.

Quote from: Bruwulf;1113999Because SDC beings, like humans, are not able to stand up to MDC damage sources without armor, and on the flipside MDC armor renders most SDC damage sources laughable. From there it becomes an arms race.

I mean, in the real world, a crappy knock-off, under-powered, ill-repaired pistol can kill you, but it also might not. Depends where you get hit, luck, etc. In Rifts, the crappiest crap MDC pistol that ever existed is still going to obliterate you. A lot of people house-ruled the MDC to SDC conversion ratio down by a factor or two, and others used the "instant kill by MDC makes you roll on a Grievous Injury table" method to try to mitigate the problem, but as written, the MDC/SDC disparity is horrific, and you can understand the armor and arms race.

I remember my first time playing Rifts and our characters were in an old barn hiding from some mercenaries. A firefight started and one of the headhunters took down the entire barn with a shot from his MDC handgun. Yeah... that's when we realized that we weren't in Kansas anymore (OK, we were in Kansas according to the map, but... fuck it, you know what I mean).

Quote from: HappyDaze;1113995A clean up of errata and even replacing art isn't a new edition, it's just a revised printing. If I'm buying a new edition, I want something new and I'm not necessarily worried about backwards compatibility because I believe the new edition needs to stand on its own.

Agreed and very much seconded. If a company is oromoting the new rog as a new edition I expect an actually nrw edition with a minimum of at least 80%+ new material. Anything else is essentially what PF 1E was to D&D 3.5 and Ultimate Rifts to the Rifts Main Book. The same old house with a fresh coat of paint.

I don't mind the old house with a fresh coat of paint if that is what I'm in the mood of buying. If I want to purchase a new house the  I expect to buy that.

Only so many times an rpg company can sell a reprint of old material with bettrr production values and a frw house rules before gamwrs stop buying.  

I have no interest in PF 2E at this time. It would not even be on my radar if it was just another rehash of 3.5. with a few houserules and new art. 5E essentially thought Oaizo thst they had to sell a new house and not rely on the hopes that the fans would want the same house again.