I dunno... I found 3.X/d20 with Codex Martialis suitable for historical play.

Edit: You could also try Ken Hood's Grim and Gritty rules. There have been alternatives to D&D superheroes for years... but people love to complain more.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;1113898I dunno... I found 3.X/d20 with Codex Martialis suitable for historical play.

Edit: You could also try Ken Hood's Grim and Gritty rules. There have been alternatives to D&D superheroes for years... but people love to complain more.

Or I could just keep playing AD&D! Do they do something that is so much better than AD&D that it is worth learning a whole new system and spending money on all new books? Just that it is "newer" is not an argument for me...

Quote from: Theros;1113847My interest grew out of an interest in history... I loved seeing the illustrations of men in realistic-looking suits of armour, the castle architecture of the dungeons, tables comparing weapon vs armour and other things. As an adult, I realize now that these are all game mechanics and more about verisimilitude rather than "realism," but at the same time they were all based heavily in research, even if it was by an amateur historian (talking specifically about Gygax's AD&D). 5e, just like 4e and 3e is all about the player-character, defining their powers and giving them a spotlight.

To the interest in history, I'd add an interest in heroic literature e.g. 20th century Swords & Sorcery stories, Tolkien, Greek Mythology, the Iliad and the Odyssey, the Norse Eddas and Sagas, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Le Morte d'Arthur.

Quote from: Theros;1113892By the way, this quote from the article is exactly what I am talking about:

QuoteIn 2nd Ed, the rules referred to history and to historical legends to describe the game, such as referring to Merlin to explain what a wizard was or to Hiawatha as an archetype for a fighter. But by the time we were working on 3rd Ed, D&D had had such a big impact on fantasy that we basically used D&D as its own source.

Connection to history gets expunged, D&D becomes entirely self-referential.

Interesting thoughts. The lack of historical grounding bothers me too. The 5E I've played so far (set in the Forgotten Realms) feels like I've been dropped in the middle of an anime where the author picked random bits and pieces from all over world history and mythology and stirred them into a potpourri such that the typical party of adventurers consists of Legolas the skateboarding elf from the Peter Jackson movies, but with spells, a female gnome viking berserker who is 3' tall and stronger than anyone else in the party, a French musketeer without a musket - who just happens to be a reptile descended from some sort of dragon, Sir Galahad who is actually a half-drow warlock-paladin, Robin Hood who is great with a  bow, and can also cast illusions, has an invisible hand that can pick your pocket from 30 feet away, and, oh yeah, she's a half-elf, and Friar Tuck who is fat, but he worships some deity you've never heard, has healing and smiting spells, and is actually an orc.

Quote from: Theros;1113882…the 5e game itself seems to be more interested in itself as a game than in simulating anything at all.

Yes, I've noticed that 5E in play is very gamey and each character has their set of named special abilities that act like specialty cards in a deck, with the play feel of power-move style anime.

Quote from: Bren;1113905Interesting thoughts. The lack of historical grounding bothers me too. The 5E I've played so far (set in the Forgotten Realms) feels like I've been dropped in the middle of an anime where the author picked random bits and pieces from all over world history and mythology and stirred them into a potpourri such that the typical party of adventurers consists of Legolas the skateboarding elf from the Peter Jackson movies, but with spells, a female gnome viking berserker who is 3' tall and stronger than anyone else in the party, a French musketeer without a musket - who just happens to be a reptile descended from some sort of dragon, Sir Galahad who is actually a half-drow warlock-paladin, Robin Hood who is great with a  bow, and can also cast illusions, has an invisible hand that can pick your pocket from 30 feet away, and, oh yeah, she's a half-elf, and Friar Tuck who is fat, but he worships some deity you've never heard, has healing and smiting spells, and is actually an orc.

That just sounds like a kitschy pop-cultural pastiche. I'd love for young D&D players to read some Joseph Campbell, some of the classical sagas you mention and then a whole lot of actual history books. I bet they would really learn to enjoy the history angle and it would give them more depth of experience.

Quote from: Theros;1113902Or I could just keep playing AD&D! Do they do something that is so much better than AD&D that it is worth learning a whole new system and spending money on all new books? Just that it is "newer" is not an argument for me...

I could say 'yes' and elaborate but again, unlike most people, I see where this is going... are you actually playing an AD&D game right now?

Quote from: Theros;1113908That just sounds like a kitschy pop-cultural pastiche.

Because it is.

QuoteI'd love for young D&D players to read some Joseph Campbell, some of the classical sagas you mention and then a whole lot of actual history books. I bet they would really learn to enjoy the history angle and it would give them more depth of experience.

Some would. Most probably would not. People in general are pretty uninterested in anything that happened before they were a teenager and they aren't interested in reading anything without pictures...and celebrities.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;1113909I could say 'yes' and elaborate but again, unlike most people, I see where this is going... are you actually playing an AD&D game right now?

Yes, and an OD&D game... why? Also, out of curiosity, where was it going?

Theranos, if that is the case, then complaining about the current edition is a waste of your time.

Greetings!

Well, I can't say I'm in favour of expunging historical references from the game. To my mind, *Historical References* and *Inspiration* have always been a foundation of the D&D game. In addition, of course, with numerous elements of sword and sorcery, fantasy, and mythology. The self-referencing trend of D&D has, as noted, been intentional and progressive since 3E. Certainly, some elements of such are perhaps unavoidable, but to purposely pursue such, on a continuous basis, gradually over time has a distinct impact on the game, as to expectations and foundational assumptions of a given miliue. The current state of 5E has arrived which as Bren details, made many 5E games so strange and goofy as to actually diffuse and fracture game play in many regards, at least for many "Old School" gamers. I certainly have experienced that sense of dissonance, as have friends of mine when we have played in Adventure League for example.

Interestingly, many of the younger players--say, under the age of 30--eagerly embrace the weird, ultra-Anime Zoo-style of game without batting an eye. They see no dissonance in having a party composed of four or five Dragonborn, Half-Drow, Pink Gnomes and gay rainbow-striped half-elemental Centaurs, and one normal human and one normal Grey Elf. Of course, also embracing the most ridiculous class combinations--i.e. Warlock/Paladins and so on. I and a buddy of mine played in a campaign of Adventure's League where we were asked, "You're just a normal human?" My buddy rolled up a human Cleric, and I had rolled up a human Barbarian. Everyone else, through rotations of several drop-ins, were all crazy Anime-Zoo freaks of one kind or another.

These trends started in 3E, and have continued with increased momentum in 5E. Yes, back in 1E days, there were strange characters as well, but most were normal. It seems like the distinction to me was that then, the Zoo-Toolbox was separated, and kept firmly in the DM's control, with the base assumtions being normal historical and mythology based icons. Now, such a Zoo-Toolbox is brought out, more front and center, in the hands of the players, and throughout the core rulebooks and supplements as well, with a more normal baseline somewhat relegated to a small sidebar. The emphasis is very clear, hence why in game after game, the majority of players embrace a Zoo-freak train. Such Zoo-freaktrain parties tend to be far more inspired by Anime and Superheroes-style characters, than more traditional historical and mythology-based standards.

Admittedly, it is distracting, and generates a myriad of disconnections within play for many. *shrugs* That is what the newer generations embrace--as well as the Wizards leadership. My solution is to run my own campaigns by a ruthless "Old School" hand, heavily inspired by history and mythology, and ignoring the whole Anime/Superhero Zoo-Freaktrain trends of the current edition. Players in my campaigns soon learn that SHARK's world is certainly not a Happy Rainbow Barney Land. Weird minorities and Zoo-freaktrains are often burned at the stake, tortured and killed swiftly. Such characters typically have a short lifespan in the campaign, and likewise, weird, uber-super-hero quasi-villain-like classes. Those seeking to "Use Dark Powers for Good!" (TM). (Laughs)--generally have a brief career as well, and much for the same reasons as Zoo-freaktrain characters.

The emphasis creates a very different dynamic for the campaign--a base that is relatively normal, and reliably based in history and mythology, *occasionally* sprinkled with something weird or unusual--instead of the majority of the population being Seattle 2019 inspired Zoo-freaktrains, with the occasional sprinkling of more normal characters.Imagine a 90/10 or 80/20 ratios, but reversed. Such ratios create very different campaigns, based on what the campaign emphasizes and focuses on.

I recommend maintaining a rough, strict hand as the DM. Unless you specifically want to run a "Kitchen-Sink" style game where Anime and Superhero style characters are the norm. Otherwise, maintaining a rough and strict hand allows you to create and maintain a more traditional, normal world that is more consistent and believable. Strangely, it is in just such a traditional, "Old School" environment that the heralded "Zoo-freaktrain/special Snowflake" character actually embraces something of a genuine aura of specialness. In a world of Zoo-freaktrains, none of them are special, because they have all become the standard and the norm.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Theros;1113913Yes, and an OD&D game... why? Also, out of curiosity, where was it going?

Yes!!!  Another OD&D fan.

Quote from: SHARK;1113925These trends started in 3E, and have continued with increased momentum in 5E. Yes, back in 1E days, there were strange characters as well, but most were normal. It seems like the distinction to me was that then, the Zoo-Toolbox was separated, and kept firmly in the DM's control, with the base assumtions being normal historical and mythology based icons. Now, such a Zoo-Toolbox is brought out, more front and center, in the hands of the players, and throughout the core rulebooks and supplements as well, with a more normal baseline somewhat relegated to a small sidebar. The emphasis is very clear, hence why in game after game, the majority of players embrace a Zoo-freak train. Such Zoo-freaktrain parties tend to be far more inspired by Anime and Superheroes-style characters, than more traditional historical and mythology-based standards.

Come on SHARK, these trends did not start in 3e.  How can you remember the Drow in Unearthed Arcana from ADnD published 1985 and then look me in the face and tell me honestly hand on heart that the Anime Zoo_toolbox started 15 years later with 3e.

Gary Gygax even had players in his campaign playing Balrog and Vampire characters and somehow I am supposed to believe that "real" DnD players only ever played white male human characters for thirty years until those dirty MtG people fucked it all up for everyone.

Quote from: Shasarak;1113928Come on SHARK, these trends did not start in 3e.  How can you remember the Drow in Unearthed Arcana from ADnD published 1985 and then look me in the face and tell me honestly hand on heart that the Anime Zoo_toolbox started 15 years later with 3e.

Gary Gygax even had players in his campaign playing Balrog and Vampire characters and somehow I am supposed to believe that "real" DnD players only ever played white male human characters for thirty years until those dirty MtG people fucked it all up for everyone.

Greetings!

Hello, Shasarak! Well, I did mention that weird characters and races had been done before, back in AD&D, my friend. In my mind, and my experience, Shasarak, it has been more or less a *spectrum* through the years. Also in my commentary, I described *ratios*. In the old days, the spectrum favoured more traditional characters and races. Nowadays, as I described in Adventurer's League, that spectrum has seemed to have swung to the opposite, favouring the Zoo-trainwreck characters. That's what I have seen, in Adventurer's League groups over many months. In my home games, that isn't the case, of course. If you have more normal groups at home, well, that's a good thing, Shasarak!

If your groups are more Zoo-trainwrecks, well, as mentioned by Bren and myself, it presents some more insidious negative-leaning implications and dynamics for a campaign, in my view. Naturally, with the caveat that if you are running a more "Kitchen-Sink" kind of campaign, which embraces multitudes of aliens and freaktrains, then no such problem dynamics are likely to present themselves. However, as others have noted, if on the other hand as a DM you desire to present a milieu that is more historically and mythologically based, embracing such Zoo-freaktrain characters can decisively change your campaign in ways that are not desired, and otherwise difficult to recover from.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1113925Yes, back in 1E days, there were strange characters as well, but most were normal. It seems like the distinction to me was that then, the Zoo-Toolbox was separated, and kept firmly in the DM's control, with the base assumtions being normal historical and mythology based icons. Now, such a Zoo-Toolbox is brought out, more front and center, in the hands of the players, and throughout the core rulebooks and supplements as well, with a more normal baseline somewhat relegated to a small sidebar. The emphasis is very clear, hence why in game after game, the majority of players embrace a Zoo-freak train. Such Zoo-freaktrain parties tend to be far more inspired by Anime and Superheroes-style characters, than more traditional historical and mythology-based standards.

Whaaaaaat? ...Um. not quite. I do remember how well Arduin was originally received in the 0D&D/1eAD&D community. Arduin chargen featured a full Zoo-Toolbox of player critters, that the players could play. There were Rainbow Unicorns, and insectoid Phraints, Centaurs (three different races!), goblins, gnomes, hobbits, kobbits, and Khai-Shang. There were Khai-Zirin (Think Khajit!), Knoblins, Orcs,  four-armed Throon, and Saurigs. There were Urukks, Deodanth, Elves, Amazon, and Mermen, as well as Dragons, and fourteen different human variations. There were demons, sea demons, octorillas, wobras, and Hellmaidens.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1113933Whaaaaaat? ...Um. not quite. I do remember how well Arduin was originally received in the 0D&D/1eAD&D community. Arduin chargen featured a full Zoo-Toolbox of player critters, that the players could play. There were Rainbow Unicorns, and insectoid Phraints, Centaurs (three different races!), goblins, gnomes, hobbits, kobbits, and Khai-Shang. There were Khai-Zirin (Think Khajit!), Knoblins, Orcs,  four-armed Throon, and Saurigs. There were Urukks, Deodanth, Elves, Amazon, and Mermen, as well as Dragons, and fourteen different human variations. There were demons, sea demons, octorillas, wobras, and Hellmaidens.

And of course Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World.

Quote from: SHARK;1113931Greetings!

Hello, Shasarak! Well, I did mention that weird characters and races had been done before, back in AD&D, my friend. In my mind, and my experience, Shasarak, it has been more or less a *spectrum* through the years. Also in my commentary, I described *ratios*. In the old days, the spectrum favoured more traditional characters and races. Nowadays, as I described in Adventurer's League, that spectrum has seemed to have swung to the opposite, favouring the Zoo-trainwreck characters. That's what I have seen, in Adventurer's League groups over many months. In my home games, that isn't the case, of course. If you have more normal groups at home, well, that's a good thing, Shasarak!

If your groups are more Zoo-trainwrecks, well, as mentioned by Bren and myself, it presents some more insidious negative-leaning implications and dynamics for a campaign, in my view. Naturally, with the caveat that if you are running a more "Kitchen-Sink" kind of campaign, which embraces multitudes of aliens and freaktrains, then no such problem dynamics are likely to present themselves. However, as others have noted, if on the other hand as a DM you desire to present a milieu that is more historically and mythologically based, embracing such Zoo-freaktrain characters can decisively change your campaign in ways that are not desired, and otherwise difficult to recover from.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

SHARK there are a lot of things that you can lay the blame for at the feet of 3e and on the other hand it makes your argument look so much weaker when the things you blame it for just are not true.  If you look at just the core 3e rules then you only have the standard races Human, Elf, Half Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome and Half Orc.  Which one of those is the start of the trend of Zoo-trainwreck races?

If you want to complain about Adventurer's League then go ahead, not my circus, not my monkeys.  But for Gawds sake I have played Drow, Minotaur, Giff, Half-Giant and Thi-kreen characters that I can remember off the top of my head and none of them were 3e characters.  And for the DMs that want to play up their "realistic racist" game settings then just remember that my murder hobo characters get as much XP from your precious NPCs as they do from monsters so a mob of KKK villages is just a target rich environment with the added benefit that you dont need to poke around a trap filled dungeon.