Quote from: S'mon;1111001Another thing it takes a while to grok about 5e is that they did compress the power level; 1-20 in 5e is more like 1-10 in AD&D (or 3e, leaving aside issues with monster statting esp in 3.5 where Balors are CR 20). You only start to be 'high level' 11+ and even then are much more grounded than 1e Name Level PCs, never mind 3e/PF level 11+ demigods. It gives a playable heroic-fantasy experience 1-20 (well, arguably 3-20 or 5-20); you only start to feel Epic at 17+, and the high level game works great with a more grounded tone than in 3e or 4e, though it can also accommodate more wahoo play.

Further supplemented by the deliberate skewing of the experience charts so that the majority of play time will be concentrated in a range of about levels 5 to 16 (or 4 to 16 or several other possibilities).

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1111090Further supplemented by the deliberate skewing of the experience charts so that the majority of play time will be concentrated in a range of about levels 5 to 16 (or 4 to 16 or several other possibilities).

5-10 actually as that was what Mearls believed was the "sweet spot" for modern players with ADD or something.

That said. the level curve for 5e actually follows something close to the average of the levelling curves in AD&D when compared by just adding a 0 to 5e's EXP needs.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1110970Come on, show us the goods.

Is there any point to replying to the Darrin Kelley of 5e? Some of the points are amusing in juxtaposition: anyone with no comment on the tiny type in the index shouldn't have any trouble reading the page numbers; monsters are boring interchangeable sacks of HPs but CR gives no information on toughness even though its based mostly on HPs, damage, AC and chance to hit; gold is useless but not getting more of it for selling magic items is the worst thing ever; the game isn't modular but ignoring the modularity for changing length of long rests in the DMG; casters don't need resource management because cantrips, but primary casters being far better isn't likely without spell slots.

Sacrificial Lamb apparently does not seem to know the game very well (misconception about advantage, what's modular, how skills work, what gold can be used for, limits created by spell concentration), but is mostly disputing design decisions (the crafting system, naval and siege rules, fewer permanent spells to change the environment, bounded accuracy). There's a few complaints we've already discussed in this thread followed by claims that nobody will examine the game.

A few specifics:
12. it's the least modular game ever, because bounded accuracy can't be pulled out the way things that were peripheral to AD&D could be; pull out unbounded accuracy from earlier D&D and you would have to adjust as much to make it playable.
15. all the character classes and class paths seem playable. there is no great synergy that ends up forcing everyone into a few viable "builds".
17. There's not much in the way of meaningful guidelines for using these "skills"? - if only the PHB had an entire chapter explaining how the skills are used! Wait, it does.
20. somebody worries that RPG art is excluding characters who look like them, and nobody bit their head off? OK, it's about manly white men, and not having them be the tone.

This was already too long spent on this.

Quote from: Omega;11111265-10 actually as that was what Mearls believed was the "sweet spot" for modern players with ADD or something.

I find it a bit ironic considering that IME 5e is by far the best edition ever for playing at 11-16, and you can run 5-10 adventures for 11-16 doing little more than double the monster numbers! On Sunday I ran the Sacred Stone Monastery from Princes of the Apocalypse. It's written for 4 PCs of level 5, I ran it with 6 PCs of level 8 plus 8 allied NPC Feathergale Knights, and the players were sweating buckets. All I did was increase opponent numbers a bit (eg 2 guards +1 priest >4 guards +1 priest), make them fairly well organised, and add a CR 5 Bulette with a bonus action leap, so I could use my Bulette mini (it critted on bite and took a Ftr-8 from full hp to 0 hp in 2 turns) :cool:

Quote from: S'mon;1111167I find it a bit ironic considering that IME 5e is by far the best edition ever for playing at 11-16, and you can run 5-10 adventures for 11-16 doing little more than double the monster numbers! On Sunday I ran the Sacred Stone Monastery from Princes of the Apocalypse. It's written for 4 PCs of level 5, I ran it with 6 PCs of level 8 plus 8 allied NPC Feathergale Knights, and the players were sweating buckets. All I did was increase opponent numbers a bit (eg 2 guards >4 guards), make them fairly well organised, and add a CR 5 Bulette with a bonus action leap, so I could use my Bulette mini (it critted on bite and took a Ftr-8 from full hp to 0 hp in 2 turns) :cool:

Greetings!

That's fucking right, my friend! BULETTE'S LEAPING AND BITING!!!!!! Just the visual alone makes me want to light up a fine cigar in joy at the monster's awesome victory! CHOMP! CHOMP! CHOMP! Make the players howl and squirm! Make them dig down deep for victory!

Many years ago, it was during my first character as a player. My DM had my character--a Human Paladin, I think he was level 6 to 10, maybe level 8. All of my companions had been killed, or sold off into slavery. My character was given to a tribe of evil Yetis that lived in an ancient fortress, with a prison deep in the earth. My character was naked, stripped of all his glorious armour, gear, and his +5 Holy Avenger sword. The Yetis tortured me.

After many days, I managed to break free from my chains, and my prison cell. A yeti guard had fought with me, hand to hand, biting me with his fanged mouth and powerful jaws. Bleeding, wounded, I knelt in prayer, resigned that all my gear was gone forever, and I would likely die in the great Yeti Fortress.

Something in me snapped. The next Yeti guard I encountered, I leaped upon him, naked, and wrestled with him. I used my mouth to bite the Yeti. Over and over, I strangled him, twisting his neck, I tore his ear off, and got to the place where I bit his furry throat out with my teeth. Rising victorious, now armed with just a simple club of polished, worked stone, I began stalking the dark hallways, ambushing Yetis as I went. My character remained in the darkness, and harried the Yetis for long days, and weeks. I had no desire to find a way of escape. I wanted only to bring terror and blood to the evil Yetis, even if it meant I might be overwhelmed and eaten alive. Before that sure defeat, I would eat the Yetis. They would hear the distant cries of their brothers in the darkness, as I ambushed them and devoured them!

Covered in bright gore, a rough skin of a slain Yeti, a simple necklace of Yeti Teeth, and my stone club....I became the terror that haunted the Yeti Fortress.

Eventually, the day came, when I found my chest, and rejoined my gear, my armour, and my beloved sword.

The final conflict between my character and the Yeti Warlord saw me beating him down with my sword, and then grabbing him at the top of the stairway, with his loyal fellows looking on, as I grappled with him, hand to hand, biting him over and over, and howling in frenzied triumph, as the chewed body of the Yet fell down the steps far below.

I emerged victorious, in the dawn of a new day. I returned to the kingdom, and regathered my companions, but my character had changed forever.

I strangled Yeti warriors with fishing rope. I clawed and bit them, and used a lantern to cave their heads in. I poured oil down their throats, and shoved a burning torch into their mouths. I fought with a grappling hook, and used my polished stone club. A dozen ways of combat, a dozen ways of ambush, and slaughter. A dozen displays of slaughtered Yeti foes, to use psychological warfare on them. All with no magic, no armour, no special healing or power, beyond the basic powers as a Paladin. Alone, outnumbered, and afraid. I resolved that if I was to die, I would die gloriously, with a legend growing from my exploits. If I did not die, the Yeti would learn fear. They would learn death, blood, and terror. I would rise, victorious.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3938[/ATTACH]

SHARK's Paladin when the Yetis draw First Blood.

:confused: But what about breaking rations together with the Yetis, communicating the power of friendship through hand signs and sharing?

Quote from: S'mon;1111167I find it a bit ironic considering that IME 5e is by far the best edition ever for playing at 11-16, and you can run 5-10 adventures for 11-16 doing little more than double the monster numbers! On Sunday I ran the Sacred Stone Monastery from Princes of the Apocalypse. It's written for 4 PCs of level 5, I ran it with 6 PCs of level 8 plus 8 allied NPC Feathergale Knights, and the players were sweating buckets. All I did was increase opponent numbers a bit (eg 2 guards +1 priest >4 guards +1 priest), make them fairly well organised, and add a CR 5 Bulette with a bonus action leap, so I could use my Bulette mini (it critted on bite and took a Ftr-8 from full hp to 0 hp in 2 turns) :cool:

Well, it is why I said approximate in my original statement.  There are odd little slow downs just before you cross ever tier boundary, for example.  However it is otherwise characterized, I think it is fair to say that the intent was to spend the least time in levels 1-4, and the time spent there heavily skewed towards the end.  Then levels 17-20 are meant to be next lowest (assuming campaigns go that far).  Yes, 11-16 is meant to be less time than 5-10, but it is still intended to be a slight ratchet in speed to help with a change in tone for that tier.  Again, for campaigns that go that far.  

Among its numerous virtues, one thing I enjoy about this leveling scheme is that it gives natural campaign break points and/or endings.  You can do low end, where the players hit 4 pretty fast, then do a lot of stuff at 5, and then it ends.  Or you can do the "sweet spot" 1 to 11 or 3 to 11 or 5 to 11, in much the same way.  And if a few characters manage to push to 12 during one of those, nothing will break, either.  I suspect the upper end has a similar dynamic, but have no experience with it to say.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1110918(13.) 5e is a game of padded sumo. It's impossible for a character to have a lasting injury. You lie down for 8 hours, and you get all your hit points back.....without using magic. I sense that the reason for this is that the authors wanted people to be less reliant upon clerics. But this is just so weird, that it mentally takes me out of the game.....and makes me focus on the game mechanics instead. In other editions, you needed bed rest and time to get your hit points back, and it could take many days to recover (if you didn't have magic). Not any more.

I think you're correct that the recovery times are much faster, but I think you've applied the wrong word to it.  Padded Sumo is about having big piles of hit points without anyway to get through them.  In 1st and 2nd edition, even a powerful demon (god) like Lolth had a small number of hit points.  With the right weapon getting to attack 2x in a round, you could hope to kill her outright in a couple of rounds.  In 3.x, hit points increased dramatically, but damage output GENERALLY didn't.  You had to put together a 'trick' like a pounce/charge to deal the type of hit point damage to get through your opponents.  4th edition was worse.  

I don't think enemies take an unreasonable number of hits to drop in combat.  And if you drop someone, you can kill them and not give them 8 hours of rest.  So fast healing doesn't really apply...

5E sells despite any criticism.  It's the opposite of what happened with 4E.  It's like Mearls & Co. made a deal this time.....

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1111191I suspect the upper end has a similar dynamic, but have no experience with it to say.

Yeah, 17-20+ works fine too. Nothing breaks. Even the infinite Wildshape Druid-20 isn't OP in practice, and can play beside a Rogue-17.

Exactly. What Mearls and co say and thing gets contradicted by actual play.

From experience DMin t 5e for years now what I saw fairly often is that the system seems to cluter alot of goodies within that 5-10 level range. Then things even out to a more sedate pace. Which balances out the tendency of the early levels for items gained. On the flip side several classes get some interesting perks approaching level 20. Which makes reliance on items less a need.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1111191There are odd little slow downs just before you cross ever tier boundary, for example.

When Adventurers League still had advancement by XP, there were options to use downtime awarded to advance from 4th to 5th level and from 10th to 11th level. In part I think this was to keep players together if they wanted (since adventures were mostly strictly by tier) but also because it was a hard slog at those levels if you were only getting XP appropriate for the bottom of the tier - especially level 4.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1111192I think you're correct that the recovery times are much faster, but I think you've applied the wrong word to it.  Padded Sumo is about having big piles of hit points without anyway to get through them.  In 1st and 2nd edition, even a powerful demon (god) like Lolth had a small number of hit points.  With the right weapon getting to attack 2x in a round, you could hope to kill her outright in a couple of rounds.  In 3.x, hit points increased dramatically, but damage output GENERALLY didn't.  You had to put together a 'trick' like a pounce/charge to deal the type of hit point damage to get through your opponents.  4th edition was worse.  

I don't think enemies take an unreasonable number of hits to drop in combat.  And if you drop someone, you can kill them and not give them 8 hours of rest.  So fast healing doesn't really apply...

I think you're right; I'm probably using the wrong term on that one......but you still get my point.

Quote from: Razor 0075e sells despite any criticism. It's the opposite of what happened with 4E. It's like Mearls & Co. made a deal this time.....

Does 5e really sell though? Mearls said that it sold more than 3e or 4e, but I can't seem to find any sales numbers anywhere.....and without precise sales numbers, it's all bullshit to me. I don't mean to be a Doubting Thomas, but I'm much more cynical now in regards to either human or corporate ethical behavior than I used to be. :cool:

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;1111318Does 5e really sell though? Mearls said that it sold more than 3e or 4e, but I can't seem to find any sales numbers anywhere.....and without precise sales numbers, it's all bullshit to me. I don't mean to be a Doubting Thomas, but I'm much more cynical now in regards to either human or corporate ethical behavior than I used to be. :cool:

I don't think 5e is selling because the D&D department at Wizards of the Coast are smart - I honestly think they could have done things a lot better.  But people on this forum have been saying for a decade or more that there should be a 'boxed set' for sale at major retailers (like Target) that makes entry into the game simple.  So, that's one thing.

Anecdotal though it may be, at the local Barnes and Noble there is a whole book shelf for 5e - it's at least 6' tall and 4' wide.  There's a different bookshelf for all other RPG books.  It's roughly the same size, but the RPGs are maybe two shelves (mostly split between Zwiehander and Pathfinder [both editions]) and the rest is actually Computer Gaming books and/or art books.