Quote from: Ratman_tf;1110193D&D is the most popular RPG (again) and the latest edition is the most popular edition. That's nothing new.

Yeah it reminds me of my experience when D&D popularity hit my grade school in 1980-81, and for less than a school year, most/all of the boys in my class were into D&D - meaning blue-book Basic D&D, whose rules most of them had not really read, but they wanted to pretend like they were expects and brag about how high their supposed characters were and the five-button swords and armies of invisible elves they had.

Then that interest was replaced in 90% of them by "doing the hand-bone" and pencil-fighting...

I think now there seems to be a much more widespread interest / understanding in RPGs thanks to the hobby's history, the Internet, and of course computer games, but it seems to me that the people who these days might be starting to get into RPGs for the first time are liable to be overwhelmed enough just by the one current edition of the mainstream in-print game, which is D&D 5e and which costs a lot and involves lots of reading just to digest that.

I do know of some new kids who are into actually reading and digesting other games. E.g. A non-gamer parent recently told me about his young teen who just got (the latest edition of) Pathfinder and was snarfing up the rules. I think there are still people who will find and actually read and play other games as there always have been. What seems different to me is the amount of interest by more casual and new people, their access to information (Internet, Youtube, etc) and games (game stores now have less diverse RPGs on their shelves), and gaming experience including computer games (which do all the math and GMing for people playing them).

I started gaming in the early 80s, and I've noticed a split between types of groups that existed already back then. You had groups that tried lots of systems/genres and groups that were strictly the most current version of D&D only. My group played D&D more than anything else, but we tried all sorts of rpgs and had long running CoC and (later) CP2020 campaigns going on along side our regular D&D game. I thought everyone was like that and was surprised the first time I encountered a D&D only group.

1. Network externalities
2. It's a good game.

If you want to recruit players, from their perspective offering to GM some 5e is a nice safe intro. Once players trust you, most of them will try other games.

Quote from: S'mon;11102291. Network externalities
2. It's a good game.

If you want to recruit players, from their perspective offering to GM some 5e is a nice safe intro. Once players trust you, most of them will try other games.

Yep. Back in the day, we started with Rules Cyclopedia and 2e. Then, to mix things up, we tried Robotech, Shadowrun, Palladium, FASERIP, and some others I'm probably forgetting. D&D is the perfect gateway drug into the larger RPG scene. Officially supported D&D will almost always be up-to-bat first, just due to its ubiquitous nature.

Of course, we ended up going back to D&D because, for whatever reason, it was the most fun for us.

Everyone starts with the most easily available D&D unless they have a compelling reason otherwise--interest in a license or a gaming culture or subculture that steers them into something else. I do wonder how things have changed, though, with the decrease of vectors for awareness of other games (physical game stores, magazines like Dragon) and the growing centralization and commonality being encouraged by Organized Play and the focus of products, marketing, and OP around the 'big campaigns' model WotC's been using for 5E as an evolution of 3E/PF adventure paths.

Twenty years ago it was hard to find any game that wasn't 3.x.  For a while.  A lot of people continued playing 3.x, but people also gradually became more open to other games.  

It's a lot to ask someone to start playing a game that isn't well-supported and they can't really buy-into on their own.  

It's kinda rude to ask the game store to support a game that they can't monetize, either.

I don't think it's fair to make the generalization about millennials. As others have pointed out, a 34 year old who has been playing RPGs for 15 years qualifies as a millennial.

However, I do agree that very, very few of the people who have taken up D&D in recent years have any interest in other RPGs. It's always been the case that many players are happy enough with the current edition of D&D and feel no desire to try other games. But some fraction of the player-base was always curious about other games, whether it was Gamma World, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, or Call of Cthulhu. That fraction, whether it was 10 per cent or 20 per cent of those introduced to the hobby through D&D, kept every other RPG publisher alive.

That is not the case with the newest cohort of D&D players. The 'rising tide lifts all boats' phenomenon I expected to see with the recent boom does not seem to have materialized. Even Pathfinder,  a professionally produced and marketed D&D variant, has not benefited from the D&D boom.

Some reasons:

The brand. The allure of D&D as a brand is more powerful than it has ever been. The references in pop culture that have brought so many to D&D in recent years are references to D&D. Not to tabletop roleplaying. Not to Call of Cthulhu. D&D. I tried to introduce my kids and their friends to Beyond the Wall, but they wouldn't hear of it. D&D was what they heard about on Stranger Things, etc. so D&D is what they wanted to play.

Technological expectations. The main externality in favour of D&D has always been getting a group together. That's still a big factor. But today that are other powerful externalities that younger gamers expect, like digital game aids. If your game doesn't have an online rules database, character generator, and virtual tabletop, it's a non-starter for digital natives.

Social media and youtube. In a world where some rando on Youtube posting D&D monster profiles or ranking spells gets 200k hits in a week, any game competing for prominence and mindspace faces an enormous challenge. Look at how many hits actual play channels of Pathfinder get compared with D&D games of similar quality. It's not 1/4, it's more like 1/20. The network effect, including things like Youtube algorithms, work powerfully against any alternatives to D&D.  

I suspect tabletop RPG publishers are starting to recognize that their hopes of a rising tide lifting all boats will not be fulfilled. At least not beyond the very low volume collector market, which can probably scrape by on kickstarter hype. The biggest loser will probably be Paizo, who were banking on taking a decent chunk of a growing tabletop RPG market, only to find it was only a growing D&D market.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1110235Everyone starts with the most easily available D&D unless they have a compelling reason otherwise--interest in a license or a gaming culture or subculture that steers them into something else. I do wonder how things have changed, though, with the decrease of vectors for awareness of other games (physical game stores, magazines like Dragon) and the growing centralization and commonality being encouraged by Organized Play and the focus of products, marketing, and OP around the 'big campaigns' model WotC's been using for 5E as an evolution of 3E/PF adventure paths.

Heh.  I've met a handful of people that started when it was all hobby and game stores and mail order, that played something other than D&D as teens, by accident.  They heard about D&D.  They wanted to try D&D.  But in the translation to parents of what they wanted, or their own misunderstandings, they ended up with some other game.  And since money was tight, they played that.

Is this even really true? From what I've seen, tabletop of all kinds has been booming the last few years. Look at Kickstarter.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1110243Twenty years ago it was hard to find any game that wasn't 3.x.  For a while.  A lot of people continued playing 3.x, but people also gradually became more open to other games.  

It's a lot to ask someone to start playing a game that isn't well-supported and they can't really buy-into on their own.  

It's kinda rude to ask the game store to support a game that they can't monetize, either.

Twenty years ago I had no problem finding Shadowrun and WoD games.

You know a lot of people who play D&D may do it a bit in their highschool/college years and then never touch RPGs again.

5e depends on a constant wave of new players so those getting into the hobby just to see what D&D is about are obviously not going to be into any other system.

Quote from: Haffrung;1110246I suspect tabletop RPG publishers are starting to recognize that their hopes of a rising tide lifting all boats will not be fulfilled. At least not beyond the very low volume collector market, which can probably scrape by on kickstarter hype. The biggest loser will probably be Paizo, who were banking on taking a decent chunk of a growing tabletop RPG market, only to find it was only a growing D&D market.

Sounds plausible.
I do wonder why so few publishers are doing 3rd party D&D stuff now, considering the 3e OGL glut. Some books like Kobold Press Tome of Beasts surely sell far more than any non-D&D product is likely to.

Quote from: S'mon;1110299Sounds plausible.
I do wonder why so few publishers are doing 3rd party D&D stuff now, considering the 3e OGL glut. Some books like Kobold Press Tome of Beasts surely sell far more than any non-D&D product is likely to.

There are a lot of independent/small works coming out on PDF, but certainly not a lot of hard copy books like in the 3e days.

Quote from: Kael;1110215Also, 5e is a very user-friendly game and the basic rules are totally FREE! Don't overlook the brilliant move Hasbro made by making the basic game 100% free of charge. That strategy alone will get noobs involved in gaming that wouldn't otherwise. Older editions cost money with no guarantees of any gaming returns or even simple participation.

Wow giving your rules out for free.  So new, so brilliant, so hard to get older editions.

Nope.

From what I read usually people born between 1980 and 2000 are considered millenials, though sometimes it's 1985 - 2000. So either 19-39 year-olds, or 19-34 year-olds. That's a pretty wide range.