Quote from: Aglondir;1109136Is this accurate?

I don't consider it entirely accurate and it is also very biased. As for the saves part, it is true that three saves (Dex, Con, Wis) come up far more frequently, but the others--while less common--can be pretty nasty if you fail them too. Besides, it's not as if someone really invests much directly into saves for their own sake (with the exception of the Resilient feat).

Quote from: Aglondir;1109136Is this accurate?

Not necessarily but it could be.

If you only have one or two combats a day - and you do nothing to adjust how often a long rest can take place - then casters can dominate.

I actually think this is one of the bigger issues in the game.  It could do with being more robust - or at least putting the importance of adjusting the rest mechanic by game style front and centre, rather than tucked away at the back of the DMG without a lot of guidelines about why you would want to very the length and frequency of the rest types.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1108978Y'know, I haven't tried "Dead at 0 HP" in 5e yet. I wonder what that may solve?

There would be a huge shift to reliance on revival magics and knowing the locations of temples that can. And having to weigh lugging bodies back, or treasure.

Effectively BX D&D as in that its Dead at 0.

A less potentially onerous fix is to just return the damage limit to how negative you can go. Such as 10, or the characters CON score. Past that is dead. Rather than the stupid mechanic 5e has.

The "virtually infinite negative HP" and "virtually impossible to break long rest" are two of the most idiotic things in 5e.

Quote from: Eric Diaz;1109120- I'm sure that's just me, but I really like (non-magical) weapons, and 5e is poor at this when compared to, say, 3.x, 4e or PF 1 or 2 - even AD&D (ok, AD&D might be TOO complex...). I'm writing a few booklets and blog posts addressing this issue.

You arent alone in that. But 5e is at least geared to a lower magic item rate. Only leaders tend to have even coin on them much less a magic item. And one of the reasons I love the Tyranny of Dragons modules is that both are very stingy with magic items.

Quote from: Aglondir;1109136Is this accurate?

No. unless you are min-maxing or char-opping. And even that will fail miserably depending on the situation.

Flatline your CHA because its "useless"? Well better hope you dont run into any of the creatures that toss around charm type spells that target CHA, or spells in general that do. Yes they are few and far between. But they are out there. Not even getting into interpersonal charisma checks because you are really hosed then.

CHA is indeed woefully underused for saves to the point WIS seems over-used as a defense for things perhaps CHA should be covering. This was noted early on so it is not a new issue.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1109104In real life, there is no such thing as a non-lethal blow

It seems odd to tweak D&D to try for greater realism regarding physical damage in this one regard. I wouldn't expect high fantasy, magic everywhere of D&D to be more realistic regarding damage than say, 1930s pulps and film noir, where characters routinely get hit in the head and knocked out without brain damage or death all the time.

Quote from: Graytung;1109130When the last 5 attacks was the fighter stabbing them to death, the paladin smiting them, or the wizard frying them with a lightning bolt, sure. I think 16% is fair.

That's not what the table says though. All the attacks could be nonlethal and you would still have a 16% chance of death. If the odds were truly that high in the real world, boxing would be a much more dangerous sport than it already is.

Quote from: Omega;1109168There would be a huge shift to reliance on revival magics and knowing the locations of temples that can. And having to weigh lugging bodies back, or treasure.

Effectively BX D&D as in that its Dead at 0.

A less potentially onerous fix is to just return the damage limit to how negative you can go. Such as 10, or the characters CON score. Past that is dead. Rather than the stupid mechanic 5e has.

Yeah, that is what I would expect. And I think that may be a light-stepping houserule in returning 5e to a B/X aesthetic! That way rez spells become a tighter purview of setiing restraint.

And I might be able to lower bloat all around by recalibrating the Ability Mod progressions... Throw in GP for XP and I think that triumvate of houserules could emulate 0D&D and old skool "Fantasy Fuckin' Vietnam!" aesthetics.

Quote from: Omega;1109168The "virtually infinite negative HP" and "virtually impossible to break long rest" are two of the most idiotic things in 5e.

I'd agree to that.

That latter one I account to a bone-headed Sage Advice Ruling (slash) Designer Intent Revelation. If mortal combat cannot interrupt one's rest unless it lasts longer than eight hours, then what can? Not even most natural disasters, like earthquakes and tsunamis, last eight hours continuously... Blindingly stupid Ruling AND Rules As Intended wording; crazier still because the Rules As Written is ambiguous enough for GMs to rationally interpret strenuous interruptions as enough to break rest. All.WotC.Had.To.Do.Was.Smile.And.Shut.Up. :mad:

DEX CON WIS as prime saves is a legacy hold over from 3e. And it makes zero design sense, as it is a half-assing blend of old skool 5 saves -- which could totally work given there are 6 Ability scores! -- and 3e favoring of 3 saves because they wanted to copy-pasta old WotC-worded spells. It's lazy in the guise of compromise.

The ability-as-saves still can easily work, but you'd have to compile the 5e saves and redistribute accordingly to your campaign.

Sad thing is they could have saved the GM this work in the DMG by showing a chart of familiar Spells & Effects, their TSR Save, their WotC 3e Save, and then the new 5e Ability Save suggestion. Then that Saves Over Editions compilation chart could open up their Adventures back catalogue to new-&-timid GMs. Still there, so the opportunity is not lost... but their UA is busy widget spamming new Races, Clases, and Archetypes. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Aglondir;1109138Your skill proficiency system (on your blog) is a nice piece of work. Next time I run B/X I'm going to try it.

Thanks! Yeah, this 1/3, 2/3, 3/3 progression is ideal for me. A fighter has around +18 to 20 attack bonus at level 15 (maximum level in most of my games), and maybe +13 or +14 for athletics checks, etc. This is based on the classic progression of 2/3, 2/4 and 2/5 of B/X and BECMI, which also works for me.

Compared to both 5e (around +10 at level 15, +11 level 20) or things like PF2 (potentially +24 at level 15), seems like a better range, IMO.

BTW, I ended up making an entire book of my B/X house rules (well, with some 5e too), called Dark Fantasy Basic. Will add that to the post.

Quote from: Aglondir;1109136Is this accurate?

More or less, I'd say. Let's see:

The Classes Aren't Balanced - they are balanced enough IMO, better than 3e. The ranger is a bit weak, yes; barbarian and fighters are decent enough. Paladin is good not only because of spells, but because of spell slots (they use them to smite) and other powers. But yes, the game has long rests and short rests, and if you use onyl one of them, you'll benefit some classes over others.

The Class Specializations Aren't Balanced - half-truth. Yes, beast master ranger is bad, and "wild" sorcerer is a subclass I don't quite get, but for the rest of the (30+ subclasses) there is enough balance that you don't feel them at the table, in my experience.

The Gear Grind Is Worse Than Ever - nah, that's just not true. You can even play the game without magical gear. You basically need magic weapons to hit some monsters efficiently, but that's it.

It's Easy to Fail Character Creation - again, not true. There is enough guidance in the game to let you know that Intelligence is not an ability your barabarian wants to raise in most circumstances.

Physics Issues Persist - This is just silly. "the spell states that any damage immediately wakes the target up. But [...] what about lifting a really big rock over the target and dropping it on them?". Come on!

Building Encounters Is Really Hard - he means "Building BALANCED Encounters Is Really Hard". Well, is not as easy as 4e, I guess, but not that hard either... Specially with Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

EDIT: if you were asking only about the save issue, yes, it is a thing. Dex, con, and Wis are the most important saves. Str is number four. Int and Cha are not really for saves, so they can easily become dump stats for non-spellcasters, which is bad. Here is my fix; IMMV.

Quote from: Omega;1109168A less potentially onerous fix is to just return the damage limit to how negative you can go. Such as 10, or the characters CON score. Past that is dead. Rather than the stupid mechanic 5e has.

The "virtually infinite negative HP" and "virtually impossible to break long rest" are two of the most idiotic things in 5e.

A simple fix would be to dole out failed death saves for every multiple of something (10, or CON, or 10+CON bonus) below zero. At first level, a slightly injured character can easily die from a critical hit from a monster with a substantial attack (first ever PC kill in my 5e DMing was a critical hit by a bugbear on an injured 1st level paladin, running the starter set first chapter). But a high level character, even on their last 10 HP, is not likely to see any single attack that could outright kill them (only a coordinated set of attacks to knock them down and then pound them for failed death saves). But if they would die outright from the same hit that could have killed them at first level, things would be a lot more risky and healers might step in (or be called for) when characters are only close to zero.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1109195That latter one I account to a bone-headed Sage Advice Ruling (slash) Designer Intent Revelation. If mortal combat cannot interrupt one's rest unless it lasts longer than eight hours, then what can? Not even most natural disasters, like earthquakes and tsunamis, last eight hours continuously... Blindingly stupid Ruling AND Rules As Intended wording; crazier still because the Rules As Written is ambiguous enough for GMs to rationally interpret strenuous interruptions as enough to break rest. All.WotC.Had.To.Do.Was.Smile.And.Shut.Up. :mad:

Personally, I think a worrisome environment alone could interrupt a long rest. Some modules have built in "places suitable for a long rest" so apparently some module authors think that you don't get a long rest just because you plopped down for a while in the middle of a swamp or dungeon.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1109195Yeah, that is what I would expect. And I think that may be a light-stepping houserule in returning 5e to a B/X aesthetic! That way rez spells become a tighter purview of setiing restraint.

And I might be able to lower bloat all around by recalibrating the Ability Mod progressions... Throw in GP for XP and I think that triumvate of houserules could emulate 0D&D and old skool "Fantasy Fuckin' Vietnam!" aesthetics.

I'd agree to that.

That latter one I account to a bone-headed Sage Advice Ruling (slash) Designer Intent Revelation. If mortal combat cannot interrupt one's rest unless it lasts longer than eight hours, then what can? Not even most natural disasters, like earthquakes and tsunamis, last eight hours continuously... Blindingly stupid Ruling AND Rules As Intended wording; crazier still because the Rules As Written is ambiguous enough for GMs to rationally interpret strenuous interruptions as enough to break rest. All.WotC.Had.To.Do.Was.Smile.And.Shut.Up. :mad:

1: In BX Clerics do not get Raise Dead till level 7. Wizards get Reincarnate at level 11. In 5e Clerics and Bards get Raise at level 9, Paladins get Raise at level 17 and Druids get Reincarnate at level 9 and Wizards no longer gain Reincarnate.

2: That isnt going to help and may make things worse in the opposite direction. And XP for GP in 5e is a poor idea since like OD&D and BX, wandering monsters do not have treasure. On top of that in 5e non "leader" type monsters do not have treasure either. It just does not work in a gold starved setting like 5e unless you are allowing the sale of magic items. Which are also now fewer and further between. That and it will actually speed up levelling. As noted in many other threads on 5e EXP. This is bemusingly one of the non problems that people keep assuming is a problem. 5e's levelling curve is very close to an average of AD&D's levelling curve.

3: Of course. I am allways right! :rolleyes:

4: Its actually just 1 hour needed of continuous uninterrupted activity/combat. That is still 10x longer than any combat in 5e ever tends to last. And keep in mind that What Crawford and Mearls say in their tweets can and will oft contradict eachother and even what is in the book sometimes. Which just makes a bad situation exponentially worse sometimes. That and Crawford seems to invariably give the worst answers. The SA and UA articles though tend to be more reasonable. But not allways. At least this is not the SA from Dragon when they had someone who hated gamers and flat out stated she gave snide and bad advice on purpose to "discourage them from playing so they can go outside and do real things." :rolleyes:

x: In the early playtests going to 0 HP was a little different. Once at 0 you made death saves as in 5e, but they were CON saves vs a DC 10 rather than a flat d20 vs DC10. Each failed save meant the character took 1d6 more damage. They had to succeed 3 saves. They died if the cumulative damage was equal to their HP+their level. So if you were level 10 with say 50hp, you could go to negative 60 HP before croaking.

There was also in later playtests the Coup de Grace move that could be performed on sleeping, unconscious or 0hp targets. Advantage on attack if within 5ft. Automatic critical if within 5ft and hit. And if you are within 5ft and hit and they are at 0hp... Automatic Death.

Revivify (rez w/in one minute) is 3rd spell lvl, Raise Dead (rez w/in 10 days) is 5th spell lvl, Resurrection (rez w/in one century) is 7th spell lvl. For Clerics that is Class lvl 5th, 9th, and 13th respectively. That's more than enough, and easily placed within setting, let alone create a costly enchanted Revivify item. Great way to raise disposability and tone down pyrotechnic heroics.

So they have to frontload their healing, be cautious, and use tactics. Good. That's what I want the rules to reflect for my desired playstyle.

As for GP for XP, the old modules make it rain Golden Showers; you can easily port old skool adventures (and loot aesthetics) without missing a beat. So you cannot do the same with 5e adventures. Not a problem given you just sprinkle more loot in for 5e published adventures -- and it opens such a large back catalog (and a lot of similar playstyle OSR stuff).

I see the same things you do, but I don't worry about the translation issues. As houserule converting goes, that's light work doing heavy lifting.

ooh thanks! Revivify! I could have sworn there was a lower level poor-man's raise dead. But could not recall it as no one has ever taken it.

Clerics get it at 5th level, Paladins at 9th. Only a minute though on the expiration date. But few combats go longer than 10 rounds. I can see though now why no one took it. Eats 300gp in diamonds every time. And spell focus does not cover it.

This spell has some horrific potential though in the hands of villains as, unlike Raise Dead, it does not require consent of the creature being raised. Torture someone to death. Raise them. Rinse and repeat as long as you can afford your evil addiction.

Don't forget Revivify has a component cost.

Another way to make hitting 0 hp be more lethal is that your death saves don't reset until a long rest. So if you fail a death save, you automatically have 1 failed save with you all day. You could even make going down to 0 itself result in a failed save, so at most you could go down 3 times, without the degradation of ability that exhaustion gives you. It also means people won't want to hit 0 at all before healing.