I don't see why rolling stats or building a character from a character building buffet. Neither has to be mutually exlusive. Both have their flaws and merits.

No reason to draw lines in the sand or say that one method is worse or better than the other. Why some in the hobby insist on doing so is beyond me

Quote from: sureshot;1107735I don't see why rolling stats or building a character from a character building buffet. Neither has to be mutually exlusive. Both have their flaws and merits.

No reason to draw lines in the sand or say that one method is worse or better than the other. Why some in the hobby insist on doing so is beyond me

Maybe they have preferences?

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;1107702This. I don't want to build-a-character at the Character-Building-Buffet, I want to roll up a few stats, think about what that suggests and go forward, you know with my imagination. I can do that with 5E I expect but too much mucking about to get there.

Quite a bit though is fairly frontloaded or simple decisions. Roll or assign stats, choose race and class. Depending on the class you have a level or two before you have to chose a path. Path choice is usually pretty straightforward too other than the Warlock.

Its still more moving parts than AD&D and definitly more moving parts than BX. But you do not need a spreadsheet or app just to figure out HOW to arrange your character. (Lookin at you 3e!)

Quote from: Omega;1107742Quite a bit though is fairly frontloaded or simple decisions. Roll or assign stats, choose race and class. Depending on the class you have a level or two before you have to chose a path. Path choice is usually pretty straightforward too other than the Warlock.

Its still more moving parts than AD&D and definitly more moving parts than BX. But you do not need a spreadsheet or app just to figure out HOW to arrange your character. (Lookin at you 3e!)

Yeah it's all the moving parts. Stats, race, class. I'm quite happy with those for D&D, others may vary.

Quote from: S'mon;1107738Maybe they have preferences?

Which is why it's good to offer alternatives.

Personally I loathe random rolls in my chargen. The system I'm writing has an option for that though because some people like that and I made sure the method isn't even mutually exclusive with the default (array - my first choice for chargen these days) or other alternate (point buy). You can also role your species, background and/or general class if you really want to (though rolling class in addition to everything else is one of the few ways you can actually break a character without deliberate intent since it could shove you into a class that doesn't best fit your attributes... just rolling attributes, species and background then picking your class will get you a PC every bit as viable as one where you pick it all though).

My experience is quite similar to Doom's. The power of spells (particularly Polymorph as both a huge healing spell and force multiplier, and Healing Word) combined with "Bounded Accuracy" against low defenses resulted in pretty predictable combats. My players could easily faceroll through most encounters. And that made anything but the most extreme encounters less memorable to my group of good players.

And I don't think thats really a "problem" for the default, all ages, all inclusive RPG. it ought to be accessible and forgiving. I think its a great gateway into the hobby.

Personally, I've found other systems to be a better fit for what I'm trying to accomplish on the tabletop. Some more complex, some less. I also don't particularly care for the "Star Wars Cantina" type environment as the default expectation for a setting, with "monster" races so heavily encouraged. For a SF game or alternate setting, sure.

I think the Star Wars Cantina though is kinda the logical conclusion of a moderate-to-high magic setting where interventionalist (and often competing) gods and high-level spells like wish exist.

I know 4E doesn't get a lot of love here, but one of the things that 4E did have going for it was a setting that didn't pretend that throwing all the magic into a world would end up with a stereotypical medieval world and I think their default setting was the better for it (certainly more sensible than the unholy abomination that is the Forgotten Realms).

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;1107758Yeah it's all the moving parts. Stats, race, class. I'm quite happy with those for D&D, others may vary.

Most RPGs have stats and those that done tent to have rather complex freeform equivalents or a big roster of traits to select from. And usually stats are one and done, Either a simple roll or point buy.
Probably like 75% of all RPGs have some manner of race selection. This is usually the easiest one to do. Just choose something that interests you. The min/maxers and char-oppers can go straight to Hell. How hard is this?
Class as noted above isnt all that hard in 5e. Just choose something that interest you and run. How hard is this? Same for selecting a path.
Same with skills. You get to select usually two from a small list. How hard is this? Same for background.

Anyone finding that too 'complex' really needs to get the hell out of RPG gaming and try something like storygaming or better yet, no game or RPG at all. Just plain storytelling.

Quote from: Omega;1107841Most RPGs

Sorry. I'm going to have to stop you right there. The question posed is "What are the big problems of 5E?" That's kind of vague and without much in the way of parameters. So let me fill you in on my parameters.

Speaking for myself, when I answered this question, I'm in part thinking back to when I first learned D&D. I started with zero knowledge but was able to jump right into playing right away. I barely knew any rules. I know I had to roll 3d6 for my stats. I knew by default I should pick fighter because they were simple and straight forward to play for a bigger, and in BX you don't choose race and class separately. I knew I had to roll my hit points. The only time-consuming part was initial equipment purchase, and that sort of thing is not an RPG-specific skill, so it's not like I needed to know any special rules for that. Then for playing the game, pretty much all I knew was d20 was to hit and save, damage depended on what weapon I was using, and I'd sometimes use a d6 to find secret doors, avoid surprise, or avoid traps.

Fast forward to 5E. I'm not saying it is worse than "most RPGs." I'm not even saying its worse than some of the other editions of D&D. I'm basically saying that after decades of playing D&D, I should have an easier time, not a harder time, just jumping in. And I haven't found that to be the case with 5E, and I consider that a big problem. Just because "most RPGs" are far worse does not mean that there is not a big problem here.

QuoteProbably like 75% of all RPGs have some manner of race selection. This is usually the easiest one to do. Just choose something that interests you. The min/maxers and char-oppers can go straight to Hell. How hard is this?
Class as noted above isnt all that hard in 5e. Just choose something that interest you and run. How hard is this? Same for selecting a path.
Same with skills. You get to select usually two from a small list. How hard is this? Same for background.

Anyone finding that too 'complex' really needs to get the hell out of RPG gaming and try something like storygaming or better yet, no game or RPG at all. Just plain storytelling.

I don't know that anybody finds that too "complex". Complexity isn't the point. The point is these choices do slow down character creation to some degree. Maybe not a lot to someone who knows the game inside and out, but it's really not possible to make any of those choices without understanding what the options are and what it all means. On someone's first time at-bat, it can take hours before you can even start playing the game. There is no longer any straight-forward "human fighter" option in the sense there used to be that you can point a newb through to jump right in. Humans now have a versatility adjustment. Fighters now have special abilities.

The other odd thing I find about this statement, though, is this notion that somehow going simpler means get out of gaming and try storygaming? Again, I'll condition this by saying I don't care what's happening in "most RPGs." I don't care if "most storygames" are simpler than "most RPGs." What I've noticed about RPGs in general is the more character customized and detail-oriented they become, the better they fit the motif of "rag tag band of borderline psychopaths wander around getting caught up in wacky adventures"--which is VERY story centered--and the less it resembles a game.

I like how 5e gives you your equipment as part of chargen; makes character creation much faster. I like to minimise the decision points for charbuilding, I find roll in order and replace 1 stat with a 15 works really well at the table. Choose race & class doesn't take long.

I think the awkward slow bit roughly equivalent to buying equipment in old school is choosing skills & background, especially the nasty recursive loop of choosing class skills then finding they are in your preferred background and having to re-choose.

It's a challenge, and I've seen the returning-D&D vet dithering, because Races and the like feel as if there are "wrong choices" embedded with all the features that come included. I blame that in part of how consistent, and important, Mod Progression is; old skool had larger ranges that gave little to no bonuses, meaning it was less critical to survival. That and the previous two editions were notorious for "trap options" and "build projections."

It's a perception thing, I get it. That said, it's really hard to make a worthless character in 5e! Feel free to select with (campaign coherent ) abandon!

One thing I am still not exactly keen on is the Challenge Rating system and how it works, or in some cases, does not work.

It is best as a vague guideline. But Ive seen several trying to use it as a hard definition of what the PCs can face. And that going right out the window one direction or the other. That and the CR calculation system seems wayyyy too complex for what should be a fairly straightforward procedure.

That character creation and advancement feels like putting together a deck for playing MtG.

Quote from: Omega;1107907One thing I am still not exactly keen on is the Challenge Rating system and how it works, or in some cases, does not work.

It is best as a vague guideline. But Ive seen several trying to use it as a hard definition of what the PCs can face. And that going right out the window one direction or the other. That and the CR calculation system seems wayyyy too complex for what should be a fairly straightforward procedure.

Most of the "rules" for DMs are more in the "vague guideline" realm. Depending on personal preferences, this can be a bug or a feature.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1107534If they persist in rolling first, then do something like:  "That nice.  Now what are you trying to accomplish?  OK, give me a roll for that."  Usually, it doesn't go that far with me.  I merely state to the group that they don't declare the rolls--over and over until it sinks in.

I do the same. Although I don't get them to roll again. I just ask them what they are searching, e.g. the fireplace, the couch, the chair, or something else. I try not to ask for a general perception check. A letter on the mantelpiece is somewhat obvious. I doubt I'd ask for a check for that unless it was hidden. I'd just say, "there's a letter on the mantelpiece" in the description of the room.