Quote from: Spinachcat;1104752Of course, you can never kneel deep enough to appease SJWs, but if you kneel to them once, the screech mob knows you're an easy target for future harassment and demands.

Dance Shane dance! Let's see what you gotta "fix" next to keep the freaks appeased!

Sadly, but not unexpectedly, this part is turning out to be true. Already I'm seeing folks at TBP demanding genuflection and apologies from Shane regarding how he even deigned to think how the CSA could survive the Civil War. I'm open to this change. I never thought it made sense that somehow the South would speed ahead over 100 years in terms of race relations. He'd have been better off explaining that he was making the change because upon further reflection the original idea of the CSA in Deadlands didn't make much sense, and he has interesting ideas on how to introduce Arthurian legend. Unfortunately some at TBP seem to be smelling blood, and a "step in the right direction" is no longer enough, but apologies and struggle sessions will be in order.

Quote from: wmarshal;1104766Sadly, but not unexpectedly, this part is turning out to be true. Already I'm seeing folks at TBP demanding genuflection and apologies from Shane regarding how he even deigned to think how the CSA could survive the Civil War. I'm open to this change. I never thought it made sense that somehow the South would speed ahead over 100 years in terms of race relations. He'd have been better off explaining that he was making the change because upon further reflection the original idea of the CSA in Deadlands didn't make much sense, and he has interesting ideas on how to introduce Arthurian legend. Unfortunately some at TBP seem to be smelling blood, and a "step in the right direction" is no longer enough, but apologies and struggle sessions will be in order.

Never, ever bend the knee or apologize to the socjus cult. Only one answer will get them off your back "Go fuck yourself asshole!"

Quote from: GameDaddy;1104750This is very interesting considering what happened in 1898.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish%E2%80%93American_War

What specifically, beyond that there were at times a real potential for the US to spread its borders south, rather than simply its influence? The 1846 war with Mexico raised similar concerns over slavery in the newly gained territories and allegedly played a part in where the new borders were drawn.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1104770Never, ever bend the knee or apologize to the socjus cult. Only one answer will get them off your back "Go fuck yourself asshole!"

They're probably saying the same thing about you. Meanwhile, those of us in the middle, who are tired of both your bitching would like you all to go to an island somewhere and just tongue kiss and get it over with.

Quote from: cranebump;1104772They're probably saying the same thing about you. Meanwhile, those of us in the middle, who are tired of both your bitching would like you all to go to an island somewhere and just tongue kiss and get it over with.

Classic response from someone who really isn't "in the middle"...

Quote from: jhkimRather, it was the opposite that the fictional CSA was too nice. By having the fictional CSA abolish slavery on their own, and overlooking other prejudices, the original Deadlands seemed to be whitewashing historical reality.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1104704I would have more sympathy for this kind of criticism if it wasn't so often used as one fork of a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose kafkatrap. Write out a controversial historical reality in one's setting in an effort to free the game from that baggage, you're accused of whitewashing history. Leave it in for the sake of creating dramatic conflicts for your PCs, you're accused of creating a hostile gaming environment for players assumed to identify with the situational underdogs. Ya cain't win.

Generally speaking, sure, you can never please everyone. Conservative players might offended by approaches that please liberal players, and vice-versa.

However, I think there are plenty of ways to support playing black characters in the old west without editing out the existence of historical racism. The main thing is to think about supporting non-white characters and build them into your approach, rather than having them be a sidebar or afterthought. Historical games like Harlem Unbound have been praised for highlighting play of black characters, while also including anti-black racism in the setting.

Many years ago, I played a black cowboy loosely based on Nathan Love in the GURPS Old West game. In GURPS, this is inherently balanced because I got to take the prejudice as Disadvantages -- so I had fewer other sorts of disadvantages than other PCs. I thought it was handled fine. Earlier this year, I played in an Old West superheroes game where one of the PCs was a Captain America analog who was black, who became superpowered from mostly-lethal experiments used on slaves in the South. He faced prejudice, but he had powers enough to fight against it, and the support of the others - so the struggle against the system was one of the themes of that game.

Having the CSA makes for fine drama -- but it seems to me that the drama depends on keeping the racism, not editing it out.

Quote from: Toric;1104707I haven't touched Classic Deadlands in many years, probably since the early 2000's, maybe 2001 or 2002.  So it's been 17+ years since I've run it or played it.  I DID run a little Reloaded more recently but not for any length of time.  I don't recall ever having an issue at the table regarding the portrayal of the CSA.  We probably had some players who played characters from the CSA but I don't believe any of them were portraying their characters as flagrant racists.

This is interesting, and to me it speaks directly to the issue. Can you remember anything about what CSA characters were like? Were they counter-rebelling against the CSA, like in the Free State of Jones?

For example, I had a character once who was a Nazi, but he was a disloyal Nazi officer who was working against the system from within. (This was in an Amber Diceless campaign, so the focus soon shifted beyond Earth into the wider magical reality.) I would find it really weird to play in a game where there were Nazis, but they weren't racist.

I own every edition of Deadlands, every supplement, every pdf, to Hell on Earth, and Lost Colony.

I've been running Deadlands with the Confederacy having long been defeated since about 2004 or so, when it came to Savage worlds. Mainly, because the Confederacy having been alive and kicking made telling classic Western stories far to difficult, and involved having to suspend a lot of disbelief to make it work.

Tombstone is my favorite Western movie, and it just doesn't work in Deadlands with the Confederacy still around. It doesn't make sense for the Earps to move from the Union, to the Confederacy and become a law men, while an active war is going on. Nor becoming friends with Doc Holiday sometime in the past, while their two countries were mutually at war with one another.

Furthermore, every story that could be told in the Original Deadlands setting has been done. The last 4 plot point campaigns were all about taking down the number 1 servitors of the Reckoners and more or less saving the West. There was nowhere else to go with the setting. This reboot offers new possibilities and new story potential.

Overall I'm looking forward to the new edition.

Quote from: cranebump;1104772They're probably saying the same thing about you. Meanwhile, those of us in the middle, who are tired of both your bitching would like you all to go to an island somewhere and just tongue kiss and get it over with.

Quote from: Brad;1104773Classic response from someone who really isn't "in the middle"...

OK, now I'm getting all hot and bothered thinking about tongue-kissing Brad. I'll be "in the middle" for you, honey!  

Quote from: wmarshal;1104766Sadly, but not unexpectedly, this part is turning out to be true. Already I'm seeing folks at TBP demanding genuflection and apologies from Shane regarding how he even deigned to think how the CSA could survive the Civil War. I'm open to this change. I never thought it made sense that somehow the South would speed ahead over 100 years in terms of race relations. He'd have been better off explaining that he was making the change because upon further reflection the original idea of the CSA in Deadlands didn't make much sense, and he has interesting ideas on how to introduce Arthurian legend. Unfortunately some at TBP seem to be smelling blood, and a "step in the right direction" is no longer enough, but apologies and struggle sessions will be in order.

....

[/shocked]

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1104777....

[/shocked]

The thread wasn't in Tangency so I had hope. Stupid me.

QuoteGeekyBugle
Who the fuck cares? If it offends you, or makes you uncomfortable the solution is easy, do not buy the fucking thing or play it.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1104660I really do wish more people followed this advice.

Problem is there are A-LOT of nuts out there who bitch incessantly about games they have not and WILL NOT ever buy. And they DO NOT CARE if you change it to what they demand.

Quote from: tenbones;1104705Isn't that what jhkim just did? Isn't that why this whole thing happened? Isn't that exactly the reason why it's being changed?

In general, yes; Mr. Kim himself I don't think did that. Indicating that one understands how an accusation can be made doesn't amount to making it oneself.

Quote from: Simlasa;1104761Seems like a lot of folks on this site like to bag on Blue Rose... is that just because of the mechanics?

Blue Rose has become emblematic of a particular, rather advocacy-dense approach to gaming and storytelling which a lot of people on this site don't share, for various reasons. In itself it's a workable version of the d20 mechanics.

Hensley's reason for the original version of the CSA may have been to not deal with slavery.  However, the in-game rationale was always sound from a position of cold, calculated realpolitik.

The goal was...drag out the Civil War into a Cold War for decades.
To do that...the South needed to not lose.
To not lose, the South...1. Needed Britain and France fully on board.
To not lose, the South...2. Needed manpower invested in the gov't.
To get Britain and France on board...they got rid of slavery.
To get manpower invested in the gov't...they freed the slaves.

As a result, the Cold Civil War gripped the globe almost a century earlier than in our world, technological weaponry and Ghost Rock weaponry increased.  As a result, WWI was darker and more violent, as was WWII, Vietnam and all other historical wars, including the paranoia and fear.  When WWIII hit, it was with Ghost Rock Nuclear bombs that began the Reckoning.  Mission Accomplished.

You can argue whether or not the rationale makes sense.  What you can't argue is that they didn't put a lot of thought into it.

Now, in the retconned version, the North and South are one USA...but they still each have their own secret X-files intelligence agency?  Who's running Fort 51 and Roswell?  Are they taking a page from Delta Green with competing intergovernment agencies?

If so, what's the agenda of the Southern version?  What's the point of getting rid of the CSA if there is still a secret CSA behind the scenes fighting the North from within the USA?

Quote from: Orphan81;1104775I own every edition of Deadlands, every supplement, every pdf, to Hell on Earth, and Lost Colony.

I've been running Deadlands with the Confederacy having long been defeated since about 2004 or so, when it came to Savage worlds. Mainly, because the Confederacy having been alive and kicking made telling classic Western stories far to difficult, and involved having to suspend a lot of disbelief to make it work.

Tombstone is my favorite Western movie, and it just doesn't work in Deadlands with the Confederacy still around. It doesn't make sense for the Earps to move from the Union, to the Confederacy and become a law men, while an active war is going on. Nor becoming friends with Doc Holiday sometime in the past, while their two countries were mutually at war with one another.

Furthermore, every story that could be told in the Original Deadlands setting has been done. The last 4 plot point campaigns were all about taking down the number 1 servitors of the Reckoners and more or less saving the West. There was nowhere else to go with the setting. This reboot offers new possibilities and new story potential.

Overall I'm looking forward to the new edition.

I am going to use this to further reinforce my observation bias that Deadlands fans do not really have an issue with this change.

I like to think that Shane himself no longer liked the CSA in his setting so he decided to remove them. I'm guessing Dark Ages is fleshing out enough lore that the CSA is no longer needed to fill out a conflict vacuum.