Quote from: Rhedyn;1104410Magic cheats in ways rational Science does not get away with. When you set up a reality with Hard-magic, the truths of that reality can lean heavily on irrationality. For example, if in your fantasy world every creature is given mana and mana can be manipulated with thought to create various effects, this mana energy is irrational and comes from no-where.

Coming from nowhere doesn't make it irrational. As long as there are consistent rules for when and where mana appears, it can still rational. Empirically, conservation of energy does appear to be a rule in our universe -- but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a universe where it wasn't true. Many of the rules of real-world physics are far more strange than energy coming from nowhere.

I'll go out on a limb here...

Science-Fiction presumes materialist methodology to create effects by working known (if occluded) laws (or in the case of fiction - conceits) of the setting that correspond to what we know or theorize to be possible in the real world. Systematization rules the day. The assumptions are that objective reality is closer to what we understand and project via our rational understanding of science as the primary conceit.

Gray Area - That point where the conceit of the setting presumes materialistic methodologies to affect change through theories that are unproven, or in some cases completely non-sequiter through the logic we currently understand. So Phlogiston is not real, but it purports to explain, rationally, certain material conditions through a false premise, through the use of fantastical devices that work off that false premise in a logical order. Psionics falls into this category. Mysticism as well.

Fantasy - Where the attempts to change reality require no materialist methodology, or any other methodology other than internal logic that corresponds to cultural mores and beliefs to describe their respective cosmology. As an example - cultures that embraced logic and mathematics gravitated towards more and more systemic approaches of viewing their own cultures beliefs - eventually supplanting them. Cultures that generally did not - created their own internal systems completely free of mathematical and in some cases material context. Which in the case of fantasy CAN and OFTEN IS more true as a conceit than what we call standard "science".

Often they can co-exist in Fantasy settings in varying degrees.

Quote from: jhkim;1104423Coming from nowhere doesn't make it irrational. As long as there are consistent rules for when and where mana appears, it can still rational. Empirically, conservation of energy does appear to be a rule in our universe -- but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a universe where it wasn't true. Many of the rules of real-world physics are far more strange than energy coming from nowhere.

Actually coming from no-where does make something irrational from a purely philosophical perspective when people dig into metaphysics and what "is". There are many debates about the details, but "suddenly existing" is a nonsense term. What is "is" and what "is" is not "is not".

Quote from: Bren;1104421You have defined magic to necessarily include irrationality, but you've yet to explain why irrationality actually is a requirement for magic to exist.

You are correct. We are arguing about word definitions. I am defining Magic as something different from Science or Technology, which is what hard-magic falls into. As soon as it leans on no irrationality what-so-ever it is no longer a hard magic system. For example, Dr. Stone is shonen anime/manga where the power system is science, that is not a hard-magic system.

Quote from: Bren;1104421Also regarding mathematical systems and their supposed lack of irrationality, you are aware that the mathematics that we all learned in school includes irrational numbers, right?

Non Sequitur

All I know is my fantasy world's magic runs off a worldwide self-replicating nanomachine cloud called the Arcane Web. Spells are written out in a machine code language called Arcanos using exotic compounds that link the code to the Arcane Web. The spells also include "hotkeys" a set of words and gestures that when properly performed with a few variable phrases (generally direction and distance related) causes the Arcane Web to reference the linked spell code and produce the coded effect at the designated location.

Some people form pacts with non-corporeal intelligent entities who will access and run programs from the Arcane Web for them. These beings are generally referred to as 'gods' and reside in another realm that may actually be inside the Arcane Web.

No one, not even the wizards, really understands how it actually works or its true origins as it appears to predate the current civilization's recorded history. Thus to them it is magic... but it might really just be a very sophisticated nanotech system where wizards learn enough programming language to cobble programs together while others rely on petitioning glitchy millennia old AI's left running in the system to handle certain user requests on a priority basis.

And yes, Siri is the goddess of knowledge. She is very patient but also generally useless at actually finding the information you're really looking for and repeats herself a lot (which is why when you really need to know something you go to a wizard).

The point? What qualifies as "magic" is very much in the eyes of the beholder (or viewpoint characters as the case might be).

Quote from: jhkimComing from nowhere doesn't make it irrational. As long as there are consistent rules for when and where mana appears, it can still rational. Empirically, conservation of energy does appear to be a rule in our universe -- but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a universe where it wasn't true. Many of the rules of real-world physics are far more strange than energy coming from nowhere.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1104439Actually coming from no-where does make something irrational from a purely philosophical perspective when people dig into metaphysics and what "is". There are many debates about the details, but "suddenly existing" is a nonsense term. What is "is" and what "is" is not "is not".

Metaphysics!?!?!?! That's way more fucking irrational than any RPG magic.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1104417I thought you were arguing that hard-magic is basically science in that universe, which I disagree with.

A setting with magic does not require magic physics. That's kind of the point of magic. It's irrationally justified somewhere. You are arguing that the irrationality should start at the bedrock rules of reality to rationally justify magic (maybe not what you thought you meant but it is basically what you are saying). Magic's irrationality can rationally be placed anywhere in the process.

I personally prefer magic in settings where actual physics is the norm and magic just lets you cheat. Magic-physics settings tend to veer into soft-magic rather fiercely and I do not care for Soft-magic as any-sort of important plot point.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1104439Actually coming from no-where does make something irrational from a purely philosophical perspective when people dig into metaphysics and what "is". There are many debates about the details, but "suddenly existing" is a nonsense term. What is "is" and what "is" is not "is not".

 You are correct. We are arguing about word definitions. I am defining Magic as something different from Science or Technology, which is what hard-magic falls into. As soon as it leans on no irrationality what-so-ever it is no longer a hard magic system. For example, Dr. Stone is shonen anime/manga where the power system is science, that is not a hard-magic system.

Non Sequitur

I have no idea how your argument works and I do not think I have any disagreements.

My point is that I prefer settings where things impossible in reality are possible within the physics of that setting, what we the audience would perceive as "magic" but is entirely natural to the fictional setting. I do not like the standard D&D magic system where magic is a power source you can turn on and off like a light bulb.

I suppose the closest equivalent in reality is the obsolete scientific theories that came to the fore during the occult revival. When supposed scientists believed in psychic powers, spiritualism, ether, etc. I prefer a setting where those theories were true, or at least something like them that we the audience would perceive as fantasy magic.

Or the way magic is depicted in Cthulhu mythos stories. Not as something apart from nature, but as the truth of reality, the esoteric science that human minds cannot handle.

Quote from: Chris24601;1104442All I know is my fantasy world's magic runs off a worldwide self-replicating nanomachine cloud called the Arcane Web. Spells are written out in a machine code language called Arcanos using exotic compounds that link the code to the Arcane Web. The spells also include "hotkeys" a set of words and gestures that when properly performed with a few variable phrases (generally direction and distance related) causes the Arcane Web to reference the linked spell code and produce the coded effect at the designated location.

Some people form pacts with non-corporeal intelligent entities who will access and run programs from the Arcane Web for them. These beings are generally referred to as 'gods' and reside in another realm that may actually be inside the Arcane Web.

No one, not even the wizards, really understands how it actually works or its true origins as it appears to predate the current civilization's recorded history. Thus to them it is magic... but it might really just be a very sophisticated nanotech system where wizards learn enough programming language to cobble programs together while others rely on petitioning glitchy millennia old AI's left running in the system to handle certain user requests on a priority basis.

And yes, Siri is the goddess of knowledge. She is very patient but also generally useless at actually finding the information you're really looking for and repeats herself a lot (which is why when you really need to know something you go to a wizard).

The point? What qualifies as "magic" is very much in the eyes of the beholder (or viewpoint characters as the case might be).

I would argue that your setting is hard sci-fi (some debate on whether nano-technology bots count as soft or hard sci-fi. Soft in Numenera, Hard in Nova Praxis).

I like the idea of setting up an ancient world where advance science has popped up from time-to-time but something like a lack of fossil fuels has prevented a wide-spread enlightenment period. So the "magic" system would just be science but everything is presented and understood like one would explain a hard-magic system. I like the idea because it sounds like challenge, can you make regular science feel like magic to a person that grew up around modern science. That is perceived magic which I distinguish from actual magic.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1104455I have no idea how your argument works and I do not think I have any disagreements.

My point is that I prefer settings where things impossible in reality are possible within the physics of that setting, what we the audience would perceive as "magic" but is entirely natural to the fictional setting. I do not like the standard D&D magic system where magic is a power source you can turn on and off like a light bulb.

I suppose the closest equivalent in reality is the obsolete scientific theories that came to the fore during the occult revival. When supposed scientists believed in psychic powers, spiritualism, ether, etc. I prefer a setting where those theories were true, or at least something like them that we the audience would perceive as fantasy magic.

Or the way magic is depicted in Cthulhu mythos stories. Not as something apart from nature, but as the truth of reality, the esoteric science that human minds cannot handle.

Eldritch Skies lore works a lot like that. It is a soft sci-fi setting where all the mysticism of ages past is looked at as the results of a "scientific" phenomenon.

"'For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy."--Galadriel, The Lord of the Rings.

I prefer subdividing it into miracle, superpowers, quasi-science, and sorcery/diabolism.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1104457I would argue that your setting is hard sci-fi (some debate on whether nano-technology bots count as soft or hard sci-fi. Soft in Numenera, Hard in Nova Praxis).

All hard sci-fi means is that space helmets are needed. That's it.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1104472All hard sci-fi means is that space helmets are needed. That's it.

That's certainly a definition.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1104439You are correct. We are arguing about word definitions. I am defining Magic as something different from Science or Technology, which is what hard-magic falls into. As soon as it leans on no irrationality what-so-ever it is no longer a hard magic system.

You don't define things by saying what they are different than. So far as I can tell your argument consists of

• A. Magic is, by definition, irrational.
• B. Therefore magic cannot be scientific since the scientific method is necessarily rationale.
• A follows from B, if A is true. But for A. to be true we have to accept accept the premise that magic is by definition irrational.

But you haven't provided good reasons to believe the premise. In fact your premise is actually what is at issue.

If you want to prove your point, you need to first establish some definitions. Maybe start with what you think irrational means.

QuoteFor example, Dr. Stone is shonen anime/manga where the power system is science, that is not a hard-magic system.

This means nothing to me.

Quote from: Bren;1104557If you want to prove your point, you need to first establish some definitions.

I did.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1104457I would argue that your setting is hard sci-fi (some debate on whether nano-technology bots count as soft or hard sci-fi. Soft in Numenera, Hard in Nova Praxis).

Except everyone in setting calls it magic. I don't even discuss that this is what magic really is. At most there are hints based on certain turns of phrase or little bits of "Arcanos" I've included on player handouts "lda KE 03m out 125,30,16 KE."

Magic doesn't have to mean irrational. It just means its something not fully understood that appears to violate what we think we know... hence modern day performances by illusionists are commonly called magic because what we're seeing shouldn't be possible, but to our eyes is actually happening. The same for the phrase "movie magic" where they create the appearance of things that aren't real.

Its basically just the Clarke truism that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic or the MCU's presentation that magic is branches of science that man doesn't fully understand, but can make use of -or- in the case of the Asgard, where magic and science are one and the same thing to them.

And that is a perfectly valid definition for magic in any setting. It can, in a setting, be entirely rational, but in a way that contradicts what we think we know of how things work from our current understanding of science.

Quote from: Chris24601;1104581Except everyone in setting calls it magic. I don't even discuss that this is what magic really is. At most there are hints based on certain turns of phrase or little bits of "Arcanos" I've included on player handouts "lda KE 03m out 125,30,16 KE."

Magic doesn't have to mean irrational. It just means its something not fully understood that appears to violate what we think we know... hence modern day performances by illusionists are commonly called magic because what we're seeing shouldn't be possible, but to our eyes is actually happening. The same for the phrase "movie magic" where they create the appearance of things that aren't real.

Its basically just the Clarke truism that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic or the MCU's presentation that magic is branches of science that man doesn't fully understand, but can make use of -or- in the case of the Asgard, where magic and science are one and the same thing to them.

And that is a perfectly valid definition for magic in any setting. It can, in a setting, be entirely rational, but in a way that contradicts what we think we know of how things work from our current understanding of science.

I disagree that mundane illusions or misunderstood technology should be considered True Magic. In our "assumed to be rational" world. Those things are all magic is or can be. In fiction, true magic is possible so a distinction is important.

Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series presents soft Sci-fi as magic and gets put into Science Fantasy. When your magic system is just science, you get pulled out of Fantasy and placed in the Science Fantasy genre. Fantasy tends to rely on true magic (if any magic).

Saga of the Goblin Horde does this as well (it's a free download), as far as the players are concerned it's a fantasy setting, eventually they may learn that it is actually a soft Sci-fi setting. It's up to the GM if that element is true.

When arguing about word definitions, you aren't arguing about the "true" definition, you are arguing about what the useful definition is. I'm not going to argue that advance technology or sleight of hand can't be perceived as magic. I'm saying it is confusing to lump that into the same category as True Magic as seen in fantasy and making that distinction is useful in discussion. (Which this whole thread is about word definitions)

Science fiction is when I burn my Delta-V. Science fantasy is when you fall into a closed time loop and die.