Quote from: Shasarak;1094520I think the main mistake is thinking that the reason people lose their sanity has anything to do with cybernetics.

Plenty of examples of 100% pure humans going crazy and shooting up places.

It was the Mr Stiffy (TM) implant that did it!

Quote from: Shasarak;1094773We did?

Can you run the rest of us that can't remember through your arguments real quick.

He was referring to that several stories within the genre of "Cyberpunk" actually include people going nuts due to bionic enhancements.

He is also ignoring the plethora of stories where it doesn't matter.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1094347First of all, once more I am glad to see fidelity to genre being part of the conversation. Secondly, I have to disagree (a bit) about humanity loss: it's representative of a central conflict within cyberpunk - humanity versus machine. The Nerve Attenuation Syndrome in Johnny Mnemonic, for example, serves a similar purpose. It's indicative of a literary theme that asks the question: is there a "too far" in going machine? But, yes, you're right, of course, that in cpunk games the main purpose is game balance, not fiction-driven. As for humanity loss for sex change: I understand why transpeople would feel offended by it - and it doesn't make really sense to me either: following the above logic, I don't think purely biological modifications should cause any loss in humanity unless you're becoming a 40K chaos spawn-like mutant.

I think that inasmuch as there are similar themes, the way cyberpunk rpgs mostly handle the humanity/cyberware issue is not very good at expressing those themes.

Quote from: Jaeger;1094375Where's the bitchute version...

It usually automatically loads a day or two after the youtube version.

Quote from: jeff37923;1094459Pundit, normally I agree with you but this time you are way off the mark. The humanity loss mechanic in Cyberpunk was not a way to make sure Players don't become assholes, but a method of bringing about the atmosphere of cyberpunk literature of the time, to help emulate the genre. If you want to read Maximum Mike going off on Players being assholes with his game and creating borged out murderhobos, then you need to read the forewards to both Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads and Cybergeneration.

What central cyberpunk novels have the "atmosphere" of people with cyber-implants losing humanity?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1095088What central cyberpunk novels have the "atmosphere" of people with cyber-implants losing humanity?

Hardwired by Walter John Williams, When Gravity Fails by George Alec Effinger, both Neuromancer and Burning Chrome by William Gibson, and AD Police (an anime which was also a cyberpunk influence on Mike Pondsmith).

I listened to your video. I feel like you undermined your premise, or maybe you're not familiar with cyberpunk 2020 (or the genre tropes).

Humanity is a metamechanic because the intent is to limit a player from having too much power. - Kinda, not really. The reason why it's not a meta-mechanic is that cyberware *is* readily available to the public as a conceit. *NOTHING* stops you from tanking the fuck up on cyberware - not even Humanity. You can drop your humanity to butt-fuck ZERO and go hog. Sure you're batshit crazy. All rolls dealing with Empathy and most social skills go flying out of the window, but no GM or player doesn't already know that going down that road LONG before you get there. To the degree that you're justifying 1) It *should* be okay for a player to avoid "meta-mechanics" in order to play how they want 2) That humanity "shouldn't" be a thing in the game - sort of goes against the idea that humanity is very much in play as a conceit.

It's not a metamechanic *because* players are indeed free to do that. I can think of at least half a dozen books relating to this - if we count comics and anime - then it skyrockets. Because we're talking about normal people - that includes the players - electively transfiguring themselves into non-human constructs that do in fact strain ones conception of the "self". Now if you want to boil it down to "But this is just a game"...

If that's the premise - then pretty much everything that exists in all RPG's that are there to "guide" the behavior of the PC's is likewise a "meta-mechanic" (Alignment, Essence, Humanity (WoD) etc). I'm not sure you're saying all such things are bad mind you - but I am saying the Humanity rules in CP2020 and the genre as a whole are pretty solidly established, and important more for Roleplaying purposes than for preventing gun-bunny's going full-metal-Solid-snake.

Again, because nothing intrinsically prevents a player from doing that. It's easier to go full-borg in CP2020 than it is to get all the equivalent mega-gear in a fantasy game. The difference is the conceits of Cyberpunk 2020 and as a genre - has direct reactions to such individuals about why/why not you should/shouldn't do such things. It's the job of the setting to set the standard of what is "acceptable". To the degree that players want to play while starting at their .5 Humanity rating and the mechanical realities that go along with that - is up to the GM to react to with the world around them.

Anyone that's played CP2020 (and pretty much any other CP-themed games I've ever seen) knows a full-borg, humanity or no humanity, is certainly not unstoppable. That humanity is a guide to dictate the behaviors of someone that has so de-humanized themselves in direct relation to other humans, both physically and psychologically - that's a different premise.

Premise #2 - Cybernetics shouldn't de-humanize you.

It's not a binary state. There ARE some damn good reasons to go full-borg. And they always have to do with doing dangerous shit. In fiction its either to bypass environmental issues, or pure unadulterated combat or paramilitary covert ops. CP2020 covers ALL of those basis with chassis that players can obtain. With high-humanity costs and options for therapy to regain humanity back to have some modicum of the ability to interact. Depends on the chassis. If you're going to want to play that concept, you need to be a special kind of person, with high Humanity scores. If the assertion is that "everyone" has the same levels of psychological stability and it shouldn't matter - I highly disagree.

People in full-borg bodies that can cope *can* easily be done in CP2020. And it's fully supported. But those people in-game would be rare individuals. Like Special Ops by comparison - those guys that can get through spec-ops training. The "limitations" you're using to justify your argument doesn't really measure up to the intent of the game - certainly not by choice of the player. You even say it in your own video, "low humanity humans would be attracted to cybernetics" - YES ... that's exactly right. That's why it's a problem. One only need to look at the low-empathy assholes in real life with what they *do* when they think they have actual power.

Cybernetics isn't the equivalent to spells in fantasy games. It's more akin to magic-items. Magic items can be taken off. How much social interaction are you going to grant to the player that insists in not taking off his +4 Plate Mail while he tries to seduce someone in order to have sex?

Devil's Advocate - You go the Savage Worlds route. Cyberwear is merely a slot-mechanic. What changes? Nothing. if you only want to have cyberwear to they gills you can - it only costs physical issues due to whatever your Strain threshold is. Once you cross it, your body starts rebelling against the amount of cyberwear you've piled on with small penalties.

What is the difference? One is physical and one is psychological. Both have relatively the same mechanical penalties. But *nothing* prevents a player from making one with all the full kit-and-kaboodle advantages and disadvantages that come with it AS setting conceit. In this regard - it's almost like saying getting Cyberwear is more like playing a different Race.

A good example of a full-body borg in action is Briaeros in Appleseed. And yeah - he's got justifiable issues.

Quote from: jeff37923;1095095Hardwired by Walter John Williams, When Gravity Fails by George Alec Effinger, both Neuromancer and Burning Chrome by William Gibson, and AD Police (an anime which was also a cyberpunk influence on Mike Pondsmith).

I haven't read all of these, but I read Neuromancer and When Gravity Fails. I don't remember the treatment of cybernetics causing the type of effects you saw in the cyberpunk game (or Shadowrun) but I may be remembering wrong?

I don't recall Neuromancer doing that either. The only certifiably crazy characters in there were Riviera, 3Jane and Armitage/Corto. Corto is the only one that comes close to anything resembling cyberpsychosis, but even then there's no indication it has anything to do with cyberimplants. Riviera seems to me to have been a sociopath even before implants.

Does a thing like cyberpsychosis have to have a perfectly matching example from the fiction? RPGs usually have gameified rules that don't exactly match the source material. D&D notoriously takes inspiration from multiple sources, and doesn't match any one fantasy fiction source.

I recall that something like cyberpsychosis was clearly portrayed in Robocop which came out in 1987 and CP was released in 1988. Maybe that was part of the inspiration?

Quote from: Dimitrios;1095318I recall that something like cyberpsychosis was clearly portrayed in Robocop which came out in 1987 and CP was released in 1988. Maybe that was part of the inspiration?

Probably. It's not a perfect match. The subjects in Robocop were all unprepared and didn't directly choose to become full cyborgs. IIRC the loophole OCP used is some kind of 'organ donation' where the subject is declared dead.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1095269I haven't read all of these, but I read Neuromancer and When Gravity Fails. I don't remember the treatment of cybernetics causing the type of effects you saw in the cyberpunk game (or Shadowrun) but I may be remembering wrong?

When Gravity Fails - The overall technology this setting is on par, but not as openly available with some specific important exceptions - the the "Add-Ons" (Moddys) technology is a big part of the setting where you can chip skills... including the personality of the person they recorded it from. The very construct of the technology fucks with your mind.

Neuromancer - I just re-read Neurmancer a couple of months ago. You might have a better case here. The setting of Neuromancer is "dehumanizing" rather than explicitly being due to technology. The main character Case's is damaged by neurotoxins and is rendered suicidal because he can't run the Net anymore. You might even say the cybertech GAVE him humanity. Especially given that they cured him of his drug-addictions with cybernetic implants.

This brings up a good question - maybe only *some* cyberwear might cause "humanity loss". CP2020 does a lame job of emphasizing this - via their bio-ware which they make a LOT cheaper on humanity. I personally think it's worth re-working. People are very prone to operate from an "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" mentality.

Or maybe a hybrid system of both physical and psychological effects? /shrug.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1095318I recall that something like cyberpsychosis was clearly portrayed in Robocop which came out in 1987 and CP was released in 1988. Maybe that was part of the inspiration?

Yeah I don't think most people could easily deal with that level of bodily replacement.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1095318I recall that something like cyberpsychosis was clearly portrayed in Robocop which came out in 1987 and CP was released in 1988. Maybe that was part of the inspiration?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1095320Probably. It's not a perfect match. The subjects in Robocop were all unprepared and didn't directly choose to become full cyborgs. IIRC the loophole OCP used is some kind of 'organ donation' where the subject is declared dead.

Quote from: tenbones;1095325Yeah I don't think most people could easily deal with that level of bodily replacement.

AD Police episode The Man Who Bites His Tongue

QuoteThis episode stars Billy Fanword, Captain of the AD Police Spacial Mobile Squad. After sustaining massive injures due to a rouge boomer and almost dying his only remaining viable organs (brain and tongue) are transplanted into a experimental battle cyborg body. To help remind him he was once human he is seen at times biting his tongue. During the course of the episode Billy slowly loses touch with his humanity if not by a selfish and overly prideful doctor that helped to "make him" then by continuously taking ever higher does of drug DA-27 injected into his tongue to give him greater sensations that he's all but lost. It is also theorized that he acts like a tank with a human brain; smart & intelligent but with no fear of pain or death he loses touch to his human side and that impacts his performance in the field, an emotional/stimulation issue not mechanical. His ex-lover Jeena progressively tries to get him to remember his human side with no avail. After finding out the prideful doctors plan to let him die in the line of duty to rid herself of his poor performance he helps himself to massive doses of DA-27 that finally do him in. Going on a massive rampage, he kills the doctor and many of his AD Police comrades, viewing it as more like a dream than reality. Jeena is finally able to stop him with a large anti-tank gun after he pleads to her to shoot his tongue to give him pain, the only thing he has left to feel. We are left seeing his burial on the top of a high rise and Jenna reminiscing his past.