Quote from: Rhedyn;1094981The playtest wasn't an awful game, it just moved away from the parts people liked about PF1 and double downed on unique but less interesting elements of PF1 (balance, fiddly math feats, fiddly customization).

What I found a lack of was cool abilities. And by cool abilities, I mean things useful outside of combat. I think you have to be a level 10 or 11 druid before you can wildshape for an hour rather than minutes. Hopefully when they go through to add "fluff" the "fluff" adds mechanics. For example, in Stars Without Number, I believe the artifact Colonial Arms weapon series is just flat to-hit and damage, but the fluff says that they are self repairing weapons. That last bit is cool, useful, and has nothing to do with combat.

If Paizo really did go through and add a bunch of "cool shit" to boring math abilities, then that could save the game. I don't expect we will see a drastic re-work of the fundamentals since the close of the play test, but they did promise adding more "fluff".

Abilities useful out of combat you say.

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Now you can get your Underwater Basket Weave on, the way that you always used to before SJWs tried to make out how lame it was.  

Quote from: Rhedyn;1094981I want PF2e to be good, but Paizo has been historically terrible at making "cool shit" via fluff.

I dont know about that, lets take Sotrm Flash as a random example, seems pretty cool:

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Quote from: Shasarak;1095071Abilities useful out of combat you say.

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Now you can get your Underwater Basket Weave on, the way that you always used to before SJWs tried to make out how lame it was.  




I dont know about that, lets take Sotrm Flash as a random example, seems pretty cool:

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The abilities out of combat list is pretty lame, but I will admit that the magic item has cool flavor.

I didn't get to the magic items in my read through of the play test because I found the abilities too lame to bother with. Also you level out of magic items being useful so it kind of sucks for your "cool shit" to be tied to magic items in this kind of system that expects you to have "appropriate level" magic items.

I burnt my fingers on the playtest badly and therefore won't be buying 2e unless I see some very convincing reviews.

TBH the three actions per round system is solid, gotta give it that.

I've never been a fan of D&D3.x or Pathfinder. 5E is a game that works for me. However, there are times when I want a few more options for PCs. A little more zest in combat. So I plan to pick up Pathfinder 2E and take it for a spin. Things that excite me:

The 3-action economy. I like how it presents choices each round besides spamming your best attack.

Standardized skills. I dislike the fiddliness of point-buy skills, and the Untrained, Trained, Skilled, Expert, Mastery system looks like a good streamlining.

Critical fails and success. I've always liked systems that feature degrees of success, rather than the binary fail/succeed of D&D.

They made AoO much less common. Always hated that feature of 3.x/Pathfinder. Hopefully this will mean more movement in combat.

Streamlined feats. I like how feats are grouped into class, race, and general. Seems an improvement on the daunting laundry-list of open feats from PF1.

Death and dying. Death and dying aren't binary, as they are in D&D. My number one house rule in D&D has been to add some kind of wound condition, and it looks like PF2 provides that.

Monster abilities. Combat in 5E can be a generic grind, with many monsters acting as little more than huge sacks of HP. The move to give every monster some kind of special trait or tactical ability should spice up combat.

Basically, I'm square in the market Paizo seems to be aiming at - experienced RPGers who want a few more widgets and tactical heft than 5E offers but who found PF1 too cludgey and fiddly.

Quote from: Haffrung;1095121I've never been a fan of D&D3.x or Pathfinder. 5E is a game that works for me. However, there are times when I want a few more options for PCs. A little more zest in combat. So I plan to pick up Pathfinder 2E and take it for a spin. Things that excite me:

The 3-action economy. I like how it presents choices each round besides spamming your best attack.

Standardized skills. I dislike the fiddliness of point-buy skills, and the Untrained, Trained, Skilled, Expert, Mastery system looks like a good streamlining.

Critical fails and success. I've always liked systems that feature degrees of success, rather than the binary fail/succeed of D&D.

They made AoO much less common. Always hated that feature of 3.x/Pathfinder. Hopefully this will mean more movement in combat.

Streamlined feats. I like how feats are grouped into class, race, and general. Seems an improvement on the daunting laundry-list of open feats from PF1.

Death and dying. Death and dying aren't binary, as they are in D&D. My number one house rule in D&D has been to add some kind of wound condition, and it looks like PF2 provides that.

Monster abilities. Combat in 5E can be a generic grind, with many monsters acting as little more than huge sacks of HP. The move to give every monster some kind of special trait or tactical ability should spice up combat.

Basically, I'm square in the market Paizo seems to be aiming at - experienced RPGers who want a few more widgets and tactical heft than 5E offers but who found PF1 too cludgey and fiddly.

It's UTEML:
Untrained, Trained, Expert, Master, Legendary.

Quote from: zagreus;1095053Their own audience doesn't want this game.  Out of curiosity, I had popped into the Pathfinder 2 playtest threads, and there were several posts that said "this game is terrible, my group and I are out."   These are groups invested enough in Pathfinder to post on their boards and playtest another edition--- and they thought it stunk.  General RPG audiences will not buy this game.  I think Paizo is likely going down with this.

This, is their biggest problem of all.  It's like D&D 4th Edition, all over again; with hindsight of how that worked out for WOTC.  This is a self inflicted wound.

I think the biggest deal when it comes to the success or failure of the game is going to be the free online resources.  The whole game is going to be free at launch, not in the 5e basic stripped down sort of free, but everything aside from adventures.

Sure, you can buy the books or PDFs if you want the resources, but it doesn't look like you'll have to.

So for better or worse, the game will be accessible without a paywall.  If it is good then people might play it and increase the audience, but if it is bad then it is out in the open for all to see and it will be dragged through the mud.

Organized play might also help with that, but organized play is a mixed bag at best.  It at least means that some actual gameplay is going to happen early on and we are likely to get a lot of volume at Gencon.

I'm hopeful for many of the same reasons as Haffrung already mentioned.

The playtest threads are largely dumpster fires to be sure and I almost wrote off the whole thing because of them.  However, the actual 2nd edition forum is mainly constrictive and has optimism ranging mostly from cautious to enthusiastic.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1095159The playtest threads are largely dumpster fires to be sure and I almost wrote off the whole thing because of them.  However, the actual 2nd edition forum is mainly constrictive and has optimism ranging mostly from cautious to enthusiastic.

Paizo forums are heavily curated and cleansed. The playtest threads are that much of a dumpster fire AFTER much pruning.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1095094The abilities out of combat list is pretty lame, but I will admit that the magic item has cool flavor.

I didn't get to the magic items in my read through of the play test because I found the abilities too lame to bother with. Also you level out of magic items being useful so it kind of sucks for your "cool shit" to be tied to magic items in this kind of system that expects you to have "appropriate level" magic items.

It looks like Paizo has done a Wotc and cut back the pluses on magic items.  You can see that Storm Flash is a level 14 item but only gives you a +2 which means that you can expect your items to stay relevant for a lot longer then in PF1

Gamers are very lazy and many rather than convert over to 3.5. decided to switch over to Pathfinder 1E completely. For some I can see the same. PF 1E pretty much nearly killed off all 3.5. gaming in my area.

Will it do the same for PF 1E I don't know. Gamers also need to thinking that because they hate something EVERYONE will. As for posters claiming to see continuous playtest threads where those participating in them are saying the game is terrible and will not buy it. Either Paizo is making an effort to take down those threads or they are simply not as many as they are claiming. Unlike many gamers here many can and will (GASP) play both. If I was not tired of the new edition train and more interested in the newer Pazio material i might be one of them.

I am far from a 2E PF and will probably not buy it. What will hurt them is the lost of the current version of Herolab where you pay for what you need and it is yours. Instead they are now switching over to a monthly subscription. Which I know has angered many fans such as myself and many in my gaming group. We all enjoy Pathfinder not enough to pay monthly subscription for Herolab. Last I heard they are also no longer offering a free SRD at least on their end and through 3pp. Though don't quote me on that part. It is also not helped is that many of the new rules such as the three step action economy are already in print with PF Unchained. So less of a reason for many to switch over.

As for monsters having something unique to do it was never the issue for myself in PF 1E many did have unique attacks it was the monster surviving long enough to pull it off.

At this point it can go either way imo.

Quote from: Haffrung;1095121I've never been a fan of D&D3.x or Pathfinder. 5E is a game that works for me. However, there are times when I want a few more options for PCs. A little more zest in combat. So I plan to pick up Pathfinder 2E and take it for a spin. Things that excite me:

The 3-action economy. I like how it presents choices each round besides spamming your best attack.

Standardized skills. I dislike the fiddliness of point-buy skills, and the Untrained, Trained, Skilled, Expert, Mastery system looks like a good streamlining.

Critical fails and success. I've always liked systems that feature degrees of success, rather than the binary fail/succeed of D&D.

They made AoO much less common. Always hated that feature of 3.x/Pathfinder. Hopefully this will mean more movement in combat.

Streamlined feats. I like how feats are grouped into class, race, and general. Seems an improvement on the daunting laundry-list of open feats from PF1.

Death and dying. Death and dying aren't binary, as they are in D&D. My number one house rule in D&D has been to add some kind of wound condition, and it looks like PF2 provides that.

Monster abilities. Combat in 5E can be a generic grind, with many monsters acting as little more than huge sacks of HP. The move to give every monster some kind of special trait or tactical ability should spice up combat.

Basically, I'm square in the market Paizo seems to be aiming at - experienced RPGers who want a few more widgets and tactical heft than 5E offers but who found PF1 too cludgey and fiddly.

That is a nice list of stuff there Haffrung.  

The critical success/failure system also looked good in principal in the playtest but somewhat underdeveloped as far as I could see.  Hopefully that is something that can be fleshed out in PF2.

Quote from: sureshot;1095179Gamers are very lazy and many rather than convert over to 3.5. decided to switch over to Pathfinder 1E completely. For some I can see the same. PF 1E pretty much nearly killed off all 3.5. gaming in my area.

Will it do the same for PF 1E I don't know. Gamers also need to thinking that because they hate something EVERYONE will. As for posters claiming to see continuous playtest threads where those participating in them are saying the game is terrible and will not buy it. Either Paizo is making an effort to take down those threads or they are simply not as many as they are claiming. Unlike many gamers here many can and will (GASP) play both. If I was not tired of the new edition train and more interested in the newer Pazio material i might be one of them.

I am far from a 2E PF and will probably not buy it. What will hurt them is the lost of the current version of Herolab where you pay for what you need and it is yours. Instead they are now switching over to a monthly subscription. Which I know has angered many fans such as myself and many in my gaming group. We all enjoy Pathfinder not enough to pay monthly subscription for Herolab. Last I heard they are also no longer offering a free SRD at least on their end and through 3pp. Though don't quote me on that part. It is also not helped is that many of the new rules such as the three step action economy are already in print with PF Unchained. So less of a reason for many to switch over.

As for monsters having something unique to do it was never the issue for myself in PF 1E many did have unique attacks it was the monster surviving long enough to pull it off.

At this point it can go either way imo.

I think you are right sureshot, you do not seem like a gamer that changes systems with every new hotness that comes on the market.  And I am sure that there are many people that are in the middle of one campaign or another that just dont want to change course mid stream.

Nothing wrong with holding off and getting into a system when it has a proven track record behind it.

Between 10-20 years ago I would have. With getting older and hopefully wiser I can't justify it personally and on a financial level. It's not to say I won't as I am interested in Torg Eternity and Shadowrun 6.

Quote from: sureshot;1095205Between 10-20 years ago I would have. With getting older and hopefully wiser I can't justify it personally and on a financial level. It's not to say I won't as I am interested in Torg Eternity and Shadowrun 6.

Yeah I know.  20 years ago you have plenty of time but no money and now plenty of money and no time. I used to love Shadowrun back in the day but who has time for new funky systems now when the d20 system just does what you want.