I'm helping to run a series of Dungeons and Dragons summer camps for kids (grades 5-10).  One of them asked me a question that honestly stumped me.  So I thought I'd throw it out here.  Is there a good CONTEMPORARY introductions to dungeon mastering written with young players in mind?  

Obviously Venger Satanis' Play Like a F$%king Boss is out.  

All of these kids are playing 5e--though some of them have played 4e.  

I mean, there are a lot of good resources out there for experienced DMs, but I can't think of any specifically aimed at new DMs AND kids (or kid friendly).  I mean, I can (and will) point them towards the Mentzer Basic/Expert combo, but that's not exactly a tight fit with contemporary D&D.  

Anyone got a good resource I can recommend?

Tom

I don't know of a resource, but how much are you "helping" on this?  What I'd do in that situation is run a brief game (a couple of hours will do) for the kids that are going to DM:

- Throw together a simple dungeon using nothing but pencil and paper.  Maybe graph paper if you want to do that.
- Hand-written notes of just the important stuff.
- Run it for them.
- After you run it, give them copies of your hand-written things, then go over it with them.

This will probably prompt some good questions, immediately and later after they've had time to digest.

I'm running a couple of games and co-facilitating a camp for DMs. One of the kids in my juniors game (grades 5–7) asked what a good book for learning to DM was. Aside from the DMG (Which I don't think teaches the game well, but that's just my opinion), I couldn't think of any. Particularly not geared for a younger audience. Same with PDFs or blogs. So I thought I'd ask here.

Since they're playing 5E, what about that Stranger Things starter set?

https://www.amazon.com/Hasbro-Stranger-Dungeons-Dragons-Roleplaying/dp/B07G5X6N5P

Quote from: kythri;1092902Since they're playing 5E, what about that Stranger Things starter set?

From the reviews I've read, the included adventure isn't a very good example for fledgling DMs to go by.  I've no idea how good the DMing instruction is in it.  I suspect the forthcoming Essentials Kit might be a better recommendation.  But I dunno.  Is the STSS some overlooked gem?

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;1092894Obviously Venger Satanis' Play Like a F$%king Boss is out.  

If Venger was publishing when I was in 5th to 10th grade, my D&D crew would have worshiped him like a god.

Kids, most certainly, wanna play like a fucking boss!

As a former teacher, my suggestion is Less is More with kids and they learn best by example. They know how you play make believe and they know how to tell crazy stories to each other. The part of DMing they need is the structure of adventures and how to adjudicate stuff like combat. And they need to understand being the DM is neither being adversarial or subservient to the players.

In 2019, I'd also suggest a YouTube link instead of a PDF.

Does anyone know of an excellent Newbie DM tutorial? And don't worry if its not for kids. Teens fucking hate stuff aimed at children.

Maybe so, but as a parent I would be...unhappy if an adult put something explicit into the hands of my kids. Even if it was just a WASP album from the 80s.  So that's my line.  I'm not going to do something that would make ME uncomfortable for the hobby. If the kids come to avenger on their own or through their peers, that's different.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1093015Does anyone know of an excellent Newbie DM tutorial? And don't worry if its not for kids. Teens fucking hate stuff aimed at children.

Not for children, but apprppriate for young teens (11+). And it doesn't have to be a book or pdf. And resource will do.

Of course you don't give them Venger's book! The only adults allowed to be that cool are step-dads, uncles who cause shit at Thanksgiving, grandpas who nobody fucks with, and that crazy aunt rocking a mohawk.

AKA, the same people who would totally give an 11 year old their vinyl copy of WASP's Double Live Assassins!

Personally, I think a 2 page handout (or 5 min video) from YOU explaining the basics would be good enough, especially after you run a session for the perspective new DMs so they can learn the ropes.  Kids learn best by watching, then doing with some oversight.

It might be considered a dirty word around here, but my son can do slightly GMish stuff by playing a story game like Microscope - while he still isn't comfortable GMing on his own.

Other than that - I think the best resource is probably a well-written module. I thought Sunless Citadel was a very good beginner module. Lost Mine of Phandelver is the 5E starter adventure (prior to the Stranger Things set - which I don't have). It's OK but not great, in my opinion. It's been a while since I used it, but my impression is that it pushes a bit much to forced (or at least encouraged) scenes.

People learn to GM by watching other people GM.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1092897I don't know of a resource, but how much are you "helping" on this?  What I'd do in that situation is run a brief game (a couple of hours will do) for the kids that are going to DM:

- Throw together a simple dungeon using nothing but pencil and paper.  Maybe graph paper if you want to do that.
- Hand-written notes of just the important stuff.
- Run it for them.
- After you run it, give them copies of your hand-written things, then go over it with them.

This will probably prompt some good questions, immediately and later after they've had time to digest.

A hands-on approach like this seems good to me. Being a good GM (as I would define it) requires balancing openness and flexibility with fairness and consistency. Doing what Steven suggested allows them to see what you wrote down ahead of time and then you can converse with them about how you used what you wrote ahead of time and when, where, and why you improvised new things or changed existing stuff as the session played out. You could even go all Socratically pedagogical and ask them what they think, what they would have wanted to write down, and what they would have changed and why.

I'm not a big believer in or proponent of "how to GM" write ups. I'm sure part of that comes from my history of learning to DM before such thing existed and without a mentor who already knew how to GM. But another part is that there isn't one way to GM that will work for all GMs nor all groups.

BTW, that approach I suggested is more than theoretical.  I was very fortunate that it was how I started.  I kept that hand-written adventure from the GM for years, ran it a few times for beginners, and branched out with variations of it. Seeing it as a player first, then as a GM, then knowing why he did what he did, opened things up in my mind.

It didn't hurt any that the dungeon was very old school.  There was a gargoyle in it that could only be hurt with magic weapons or spells, and a magic weapon was near it in the dungeon, but hidden.  In the courtyard of the tower where it started, there was giant scorpion.  Having a save or die effect right up front got people into the mindset he wanted.  Later, I realized that I didn't want to be quite that hardcore about it, but he was explicit in that, "I put the scorpion in the courtyard because I thought there was a good chance a character would die right away, while it was still easy to bring in a replacement."  As I developed my own style, it was driven by the effect I wanted to achieve, rather than feeling tied to the game or some idea from a module.  Me:  "The magic sword was very difficult to find and near the gargoyle.  There's a good chance the party will all die there."  Him:  "Yes, unless they are clever, or lucky, or maybe the survivors run for it.  Or they could avoid that part of the cave altogether, since the best treasure was way down on the other end.  Get out, level up, and do something else."

I still made a lot of mistakes, of course.  But that experience quickly got me over the hump of how to do my own thing.  If nothing else, it showed me that none of this stuff was rocket science--merely applied effort.  I think the biggest issue with starter sets is that they create unrealistic expectations on what is necessary or useful to make your game work.  A starter set, however, if a very good thing to have after someone has the benefit of something like my first experience.

My colleague and I are actually running a one-week camp SPECIFICALLY for Dungeon Masters.  That's where I'm sure we'll do a deep dive into a lot of specific techniques and such.  I already have a collection of handouts I've been working on.  But this question came from one of the kids in our D&D Junior Camp (grades 5-7), where we focus on the play, not the nuts and bolts and behind the scenes magic.  For the play camps, I don't really want to waste time on explaining any of that since it just takes away from time spend exploring.  

I completely agree that learning from an experienced DM is a great way to learn the craft.  I certainly try to provide just that.  But I am surprised there aren't more videos of aids aimed at younger players.  But maybe that's counter productive.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1093102BTW, that approach I suggested is more than theoretical.  I was very fortunate that it was how I started.  I kept that hand-written adventure from the GM for years, ran it a few times for beginners, and branched out with variations of it. Seeing it as a player first, then as a GM, then knowing why he did what he did, opened things up in my mind.

It didn't hurt any that the dungeon was very old school.  There was a gargoyle in it that could only be hurt with magic weapons or spells, and a magic weapon was near it in the dungeon, but hidden.  In the courtyard of the tower where it started, there was giant scorpion.  Having a save or die effect right up front got people into the mindset he wanted.  Later, I realized that I didn't want to be quite that hardcore about it, but he was explicit in that, "I put the scorpion in the courtyard because I thought there was a good chance a character would die right away, while it was still easy to bring in a replacement."  As I developed my own style, it was driven by the effect I wanted to achieve, rather than feeling tied to the game or some idea from a module.  Me:  "The magic sword was very difficult to find and near the gargoyle.  There's a good chance the party will all die there."  Him:  "Yes, unless they are clever, or lucky, or maybe the survivors run for it.  Or they could avoid that part of the cave altogether, since the best treasure was way down on the other end.  Get out, level up, and do something else."

I still made a lot of mistakes, of course.  But that experience quickly got me over the hump of how to do my own thing.  If nothing else, it showed me that none of this stuff was rocket science--merely applied effort.  I think the biggest issue with starter sets is that they create unrealistic expectations on what is necessary or useful to make your game work.  A starter set, however, if a very good thing to have after someone has the benefit of something like my first experience.

So you learned to kill characters early before the Players have grown attached to them?

Having the weapon of monster slaying in the same room as the monster is classic Gygax design that makes me laugh and laugh every time I see it although much better to have it in the room after the monster you needed it for.

BTW a young GM I know - 12 years old -

a) Played one session with me
b) Got the 5e Starter Set
c) Started running it
d) Has 12+ players!
So it seemed to work fine for him.

My own son, also now 12, does some GMing for his friends too, but I think he tends to lack the focus to run a proper adventure, he wants it to look like a Marvel movie fight scene compilation. I think there's an element of desire for world-building/simulation a good GM needs which he doesn't have, at least not yet.

When I was 12 myself I was moving from using the Fighting Fantasy introductory RPG, to running 1e AD&D with a lot of '80s White Dwarf adventures like Irillian.