Quote from: danskmacabre;1088746Unless there was a good reason for it, such as a captured dragon or there for a specific purpose, I wouldn't.

Still, the definition of "Dungeon" is pretty broad.

I sometimes have Dragons lairs being a large cave (which is dungeonlike). Somewhere to  store stash, eggs and harder to sneak up on etc etc.

Same here. I tend to prefer a reason for something odd to be where it shouldnt. Or at least where it is unlikely to be.

That said. There are normal birds that actually live in small caves or even an owl that lives in burrows if I recall right. So the main trick is for the creature to have a way out.

Another thing is to have the encounter be the skeleton of such a creature. Let the players puzzle out how it got there and died.

And one easy reason if it isnt there with an exit is a teleport spell or magic experiment gone wrong. Maybee it didnt start out as a giant even.

Sometimes half the fun is puzzling out how something weird got there. Even if the reason is meaningless to the mission. Like finding the skeleton of the thief behind a secret door in Keep on the Borderlands.

I've seen some excuses in published dungeons -- usually a flying-only entrance that the dragon uses that the characters have no chance to detect. Really, though, I prefer not to stretch for an excuse. If there isn't a good reason to put in a dragon, don't put in a dragon.

My previous D&D campaign was actually based on the premise that going down into dungeons would be safe from dragons. (The premise was a dragon apocalypse where the surface world was being ravaged by dragons, and going down into dungeons was the best chance of survival.)

Because the dungeon core decided to put a dragon in that chamber while it was building the dungeon?

Quote from: jhkim;1088798I've seen some excuses in published dungeons -- usually a flying-only entrance that the dragon uses that the characters have no chance to detect. Really, though, I prefer not to stretch for an excuse. If there isn't a good reason to put in a dragon, don't put in a dragon.

My previous D&D campaign was actually based on the premise that going down into dungeons would be safe from dragons. (The premise was a dragon apocalypse where the surface world was being ravaged by dragons, and going down into dungeons was the best chance of survival.)

From the ones Ive seen it isnt that the exit cant be found. But that its darn hard to find or recognize as an exit. In others the PCs ar e perfectly free to try and use such an exit/entry themselves.

Theres even a one or two where the dragon makes the exit deliberately easy to spot. Because its lined with traps or warning devices/spells. Some meant to deter or warn of OTHER large flyers trying to raid. And in one case I believe there was a dragon who was using a shrinking spell or polymorph to shrink down and enter their lair as this prevented most large mundane things from getting in and if your opponent is big and can shift to get in then you have different trouble inbound.

In Tyranny of Dragons the dragon has an exit from the lair that opens out into the sky. PCs would have to be able to fly, or scale precariously down from above to get at it or even know its there. In I think either Dragon or one of the Mystara Gazeteers there was a dragon whos entry way by air was a maze of traps meant to stop other dragons getting in if they did not know the flight path in. Ballistia and other hazards. In another module there was a dragon whose lair entrance was underwater. They just dove and swam in and out. And at least one where the exit was discoverable and even usable if the PCs ever thought to climb up the mountain and look around. And had climbing gear to get down the flight shaft.

"You can't explain this" is player-greek for "I expect you to design problems and designate solutions that align with my thinking processes, or I can't accept them".

Well... I mean, there's the possibility that they were born in there and grew big enough to become trapped. Although that's moderately stupid (are entire herds of cattle routinely being led down there to feed them....? Not impossible, but it feels weird that "bribe the farmers" is a legit way of killing such a dragon).

Getting to it, big fliers don't make any kind of physical sense without magic anyway. How do you explain something that big being able to fly under muscular strength? Doesn't work, math's been done, it's absurd. Maybe it can fold it's wings and limbs against it's body and wriggle snakelike through 10-by-10 hallways. Eesh, that's a nasty visual.

Really, huge underground structures are a little implausible anyway. I think there's a general understanding that, in the absence of a functional set of explanations for such things, we're running on somewhat mythological logic. It's there because of course the devil lives in hell.

Quote from: Azraele;1089210Well... I mean, there's the possibility that they were born in there and grew big enough to become trapped. Although that's moderately stupid (are entire herds of cattle routinely being led down there to feed them....? Not impossible, but it feels weird that "bribe the farmers" is a legit way of killing such a dragon).

Getting to it, big fliers don't make any kind of physical sense without magic anyway. How do you explain something that big being able to fly under muscular strength? Doesn't work, math's been done, it's absurd. Maybe it can fold it's wings and limbs against it's body and wriggle snakelike through 10-by-10 hallways. Eesh, that's a nasty visual.

Really, huge underground structures are a little implausible anyway. I think there's a general understanding that, in the absence of a functional set of explanations for such things, we're running on somewhat mythological logic. It's there because of course the devil lives in hell.

1: I could see it done deliberaely as a sort of penned up guard. Especially if the owner was making do with what they had on hand.

2: Fucks sake this old pedantic "they cant really fly!" chestnut again? really?

As for getting through a 10x10 hall. A dragon sure can fit up to a certain age bracket and then probably cant. And AD&D dragons tended to be not as big as people think. The average Black Dragon for example was only 30ft long. I and other have done some art on that and a dragon that size could fit in a 10x10 hall no problem. Probably not much taller than a large horse, but likely longer in the body. Red Dragons aren't much bigger, averaging at just 48ft long and would have no problem negotiating a 10x10 either. And some dragons were smaller, or larger, within the specific type. Though MM does not say by what factor that I could find. 20%? 50%? Id lean to 20% as I cant see a 15ft long adult black dragon being much of a threat even to peasants. But thats just my own DM thoughts on it.

At those sizes dragons and even more so smaller flyers like a griffon are within the size range of the largest recorded flying mammal. Add in a little magic or hollow bones and it might be within the realm of possibility.

Later editions on the other hand seem to have caught on to just how puny D&D dragons are and theres been a gradual push to make them bigger and bigger. An adult black dragon in 5e is classed as huge size category meaning it takes up a 15x15 area. Whats that mean though and can it still fit down a 10x10?

3: Implausible in a fantasy setting? Where crazy people do crazy things every other weekend? And the large flyer being stuck there may of course be the whole point of someone putting it there.

Try thinking instead of just parroting the same old screeching of unimaginative morons for decades.

Lots of fun ideas in this thread!

Thank you to everyone!

Omega brings up a good point. How do you deal with Large (10 x 10) and Huge (15 x 15) creatures navigating 10 foot halls? Especially corners? Do you impose any penalties or advantages? For me, I give larger creatures the ability to trample smaller ones.

How often do you discuss ecology questions with your players?

I do the 3e-4e thing that a creature in a constrained space is squeezing and grants advtg/has disad and half speed. A huge dragon in 10' tunnel is squeezing. A gargantuan dragon probably can't fit at all - I had one tear up the dungeon when it broke out. Turned 10' tunnels into 15' tunnels!

Quote from: Omega;10892511: I could see it done deliberaely as a sort of penned up guard. Especially if the owner was making do with what they had on hand.

2: Fucks sake this old pedantic "they cant really fly!" chestnut again? really?

As for getting through a 10x10 hall. A dragon sure can fit up to a certain age bracket and then probably cant. And AD&D dragons tended to be not as big as people think. The average Black Dragon for example was only 30ft long. I and other have done some art on that and a dragon that size could fit in a 10x10 hall no problem. Probably not much taller than a large horse, but likely longer in the body. Red Dragons aren't much bigger, averaging at just 48ft long and would have no problem negotiating a 10x10 either. And some dragons were smaller, or larger, within the specific type. Though MM does not say by what factor that I could find. 20%? 50%? Id lean to 20% as I cant see a 15ft long adult black dragon being much of a threat even to peasants. But thats just my own DM thoughts on it.

At those sizes dragons and even more so smaller flyers like a griffon are within the size range of the largest recorded flying mammal. Add in a little magic or hollow bones and it might be within the realm of possibility.

Later editions on the other hand seem to have caught on to just how puny D&D dragons are and theres been a gradual push to make them bigger and bigger. An adult black dragon in 5e is classed as huge size category meaning it takes up a 15x15 area. Whats that mean though and can it still fit down a 10x10?

3: Implausible in a fantasy setting? Where crazy people do crazy things every other weekend? And the large flyer being stuck there may of course be the whole point of someone putting it there.

Try thinking instead of just parroting the same old screeching of unimaginative morons for decades.

... The... Point of course, being that we're already selectively deciding what strains credibility. The only real question we have remaining is, in what direction do we bend reality for the campaign?

-Is it more scientific? Maybe hollow bones, surprisingly low mass, superheated gasbladders or some similar explanation can account for a large dragon that both flies and traverses a cramped underground structure.
-More mythical? Maybe the dragon's a manifestation of evil and doesn't eat or drink or defecate; it's basically a demon, accreted from the pooled sins of a cursed dungeon in its deepest pit.
-Is it hopelessly unimaginative and dull? I dunno, it has polymorph self. I'm tired and my back hurts.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1089263How often do you discuss ecology questions with your players?

Only once.  And then it is never discussed again.

As for selective realism --

Sure, it's a fantasy game and not everything is going to be realistic, but most games still try to keep to a certain consistency and logic -- both for feel and so that players have a basis for making plans and inferences.

I just remembered how decades ago, I played an AD&D game where the DM used a prewritten mini-module that had a dragon as the main antagonist. When we got to the end, we were surprised to discover that it was in a big room at the end with no large exits. We were then like "Problem solved! The dragon is trapped!" without taking it on - then we went on to discuss that maybe we could bargain with it and offer to bring it food in exchange for treasure. The DM apologized for the bad module, and retconned that it had an aerial exit, but gave us some points for ingenuity. Then we instead planned a real fight with it.

Quote from: Azraele;1089304... The... Point of course, being that we're already selectively deciding what strains credibility. The only real question we have remaining is, in what direction do we bend reality for the campaign?

-Is it more scientific? Maybe hollow bones, surprisingly low mass, superheated gasbladders or some similar explanation can account for a large dragon that both flies and traverses a cramped underground structure.
-More mythical? Maybe the dragon's a manifestation of evil and doesn't eat or drink or defecate; it's basically a demon, accreted from the pooled sins of a cursed dungeon in its deepest pit.
-Is it hopelessly unimaginative and dull? I dunno, it has polymorph self. I'm tired and my back hurts.

I prefer fantastical explanations because that provides vastly greater leeway in dungeon design.

Since the advent of the dungeon management simulator genre that started with Dungeon Keeper, consumers of fantasy are more open to explanations like dungeons operating on RTS game economics' logic. The kindle store has a bunch of books with the premise that the main character is a dungeon core. Jonathan Brooks' Dungeon World takes this to its logical extreme: the titular dungeon world (clearly intended to represent every generic fantasy setting inspired by D&D) is inhabited by millions of sentient man-eating RTS-style dungeons that adventurers must delve in order to develop their levels/superpowers.

There's a Celtic myth where a villain trying to build a castle digs under the site and uncovers two giant eggs that hatch into dragons, one white and one red, and these dragons fight to the death as a portent of his own defeat. The red dragon wins and becomes the national flag of Wales, the Welsh Dragon.

By contrast, standard D&D posits that dragons have a pseudo-realistic life cycle even though it staggers belief that any remotely realistic ecosystem could support dragons with the traits ascribed to D&D dragons. Although to be fair to D&D, most settings do seem to be death worlds and the real oddity is that humans are able to survive them at all. In real life almost nobody had any clue ecology was a thing until about the 19th century, yet myths about malevolent dragons commonly depict them as despoiling whatever land they live on (benevolent dragons, by contrast, are commonly depicted as maintaining the health of the land).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1089327Dungeon Keeper

I loved this game like crazy, thanks for reminding me.