I'm late to the party, but I wanted to share my two cents.

One of the longstanding problems with Pathfinder (and 3e in general) is bloat. Class boat, spell bloat, feat bloat, and general power creep.

Official supplements introduced alternate classes, hybrid classes, archetypes, etc. 3pp introduced a bazillion more, natch. At some point somebody decided that enough was enough and wrote a series called The Genius Guide to the Talented [Insert Class Here]. The basic idea was to consolidate every alternate class and archetype and whatever by changing the class features mechanic to a "talent" mechanic in which the player would choose which talents to get as they leveled up, subject to various restrictions.

The Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might books did something similar, replacing traditional class features and spells with a toolkit mechanic. Unfortunately they didn't go far enough and still used unnecessary mechanics like archetypes and prestige classes rather than go the route of The Genius Guide to the Talented.

For comparison, the Neverwinter Nights games consolidated the 3e class features mechanic into the feats mechanic. Pathfinder should've done something like that a long time ago.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1083675I'm late to the party, but I wanted to share my two cents.

One of the longstanding problems with Pathfinder (and 3e in general) is bloat. Class boat, spell bloat, feat bloat, and general power creep.

Official supplements introduced alternate classes, hybrid classes, archetypes, etc. 3pp introduced a bazillion more, natch. At some point somebody decided that enough was enough and wrote a series called The Genius Guide to the Talented [Insert Class Here]. The basic idea was to consolidate every alternate class and archetype and whatever by changing the class features mechanic to a "talent" mechanic in which the player would choose which talents to get as they leveled up, subject to various restrictions.

The Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might books did something similar, replacing traditional class features and spells with a toolkit mechanic. Unfortunately they didn't go far enough and still used unnecessary mechanics like archetypes and prestige classes rather than go the route of The Genius Guide to the Talented.

For comparison, the Neverwinter Nights games consolidated the 3e class features mechanic into the feats mechanic. Pathfinder should've done something like that a long time ago.

There's always the delicate balance between finding new reasons to make books for sale and making more books than people can absorb.

JG

Quote from: cenmarik;1083004Keep PF 1E as-is (or sell 'Unchained Update' books) and introduce a PF "lite," (maybe something close to C&C w/specific options for minis & going tactical) justifying a (re)launch of hordes of product while expanding future APs to both systems. (Which acts as a free ad-nag.)

I don't see this current move ending well for Paizo at all.

(Addenda: Beginner Box may do some of this, but expand on that.)

Actually, that's a pretty good plan: Launch a compatible PF 1e Lite with tips on module conversion.

With Paizo's announcement they are releasing the Bestiary from their Kingmaker adventure path for 5e, it makes me raise my eyebrow.

"Finally, we'll add a hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for 5E, developed in conjunction with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing, allowing players of the current edition of the world's oldest RPG the chance to experience the rich and detailed storylines that have made the Kingmaker Adventure Path a fan favorite for a decade."

It is being produced "with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing"

Immediate reaction on the Paizo boards? 'can't believe they're supporting 5E before their own 1E'

A bunch of people have been asking for Paizo to release their stuff in a 5e version.

So now they are running an experiment to see if it would be worthwhile.

And of course they are not going to release a 1e version because they already have a 1e version.  Come on people, the new hotness you know you want it.

Quote from: Tinman;1082980I have a lot of money invested in Pathfinder 1.0 and I have no intention of re-buying everything again.  I did that too many times with D&D.

Preach it brother!!!

Quote from: Mistwell;1086076With Paizo's announcement they are releasing the Bestiary from their Kingmaker adventure path for 5e, it makes me raise my eyebrow.

"Finally, we'll add a hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for 5E, developed in conjunction with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing, allowing players of the current edition of the world's oldest RPG the chance to experience the rich and detailed storylines that have made the Kingmaker Adventure Path a fan favorite for a decade."

It is being produced "with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing"

Immediate reaction on the Paizo boards? 'can't believe they're supporting 5E before their own 1E'

Short of reprinting a bunch of monsters from the 5e SRD I don't see how they can fill a hardback. Should be a 16 page free download I'd think. Or better yet an appendix in the pf 2e version.

Quote from: Mistwell;1086076With Paizo's announcement they are releasing the Bestiary from their Kingmaker adventure path for 5e, it makes me raise my eyebrow.

"Finally, we'll add a hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for 5E, developed in conjunction with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing, allowing players of the current edition of the world's oldest RPG the chance to experience the rich and detailed storylines that have made the Kingmaker Adventure Path a fan favorite for a decade."

It is being produced "with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing"

Immediate reaction on the Paizo boards? 'can't believe they're supporting 5E before their own 1E'

Quote from: Shasarak;1086078A bunch of people have been asking for Paizo to release their stuff in a 5e version.

So now they are running an experiment to see if it would be worthwhile....

Well, someone at Pazio is not a complete idiot then.

Quote from: S'mon;1086120Short of reprinting a bunch of monsters from the 5e SRD I don't see how they can fill a hardback. Should be a 16 page free download I'd think. Or better yet an appendix in the pf 2e version.

But here's a thought...

They can fill a hardback if they make all the monsters that have appeared in their Adventure Paths etc, available!

That way if this whole 5e AP thing works out they already have the necessary 5e compatible bits in place to quickly turn out more 5e 'compatible' stuff.

A hardback of all creatures from the first eg 50 or 100 APs would be a good idea yup.

I find it odd how few people have considered that, rather than "expose 5e players to PF2" that the other risk is also present. This exposes PF1 players who are considering whether to transition to PF2 or 5e to the possibility they can have the best of both worlds by going to 5e, as they may be able to run PF adventures using 5e easier than they thought they could before.  This may well be the deciding factor for some PF1 fans who were on the fence to choose 5e over PF2.

Quote from: S'mon;1086152A hardback of all creatures from the first eg 50 or 100 APs would be a good idea yup.

If they've never been reprinted in a 1E Bestiary, I think a 1E version of this book would sell well, too.

PF2E may see some good sales numbers upon the initial release of the Rulebook, and Bestiary; but what will those numbers look like 18 months later?

Kingmaker I've always wanted to run. A hardback version sounds good. And the 5e bestiary of KM is great news, since I'd much rather run 5e than PF1 or PF2.

Quote from: Mistwell;1086153I find it odd how few people have considered that, rather than "expose 5e players to PF2" that the other risk is also present. This exposes PF1 players who are considering whether to transition to PF2 or 5e to the possibility they can have the best of both worlds by going to 5e, as they may be able to run PF adventures using 5e easier than they thought they could before.  This may well be the deciding factor for some PF1 fans who were on the fence to choose 5e over PF2.

That is an obvious risk.

But also I think someone at Pazio is covering their bets under the guise of catering to demand for 5e compatible product - and the move to PF2 gives them a plausible excuse to "test the waters" with converted PF1 material.

Quote from: Razor 007;1086172PF2E may see some good sales numbers upon the initial release of the Rulebook, and Bestiary; but what will those numbers look like 18 months later?

I think it will take about 3 years to see the fallout of the switch to PF2. Pazio will be reluctant to admit failure, even though I think it is safe to say that someone is putting the pieces for transition to 5e support in place already. Because of popular demand for PF1 adventure paths.

Pazio as a company has survived some very turbulent transitions. So despite trying to embrace the 'woke', and believing their own hype when it comes to the reasons why PF1 was so successful; there is an underlying competence for business by some of the people involved in the company.

I don't think it is coincidence that 5e support is suddenly being "tested" on the eve of the PF2 roll out. Even if only subconsciously, some people are hedging their bets over there.