Quote from: Rhedyn;1084129I've personally given up on D&D, but I think HP, classes, and the d20 are bad RPG mechanics, which many consider essential to D&D.

Not a big fan of those either but the "D&D's 5 point winning formula..." thread has given me an epiphany: I think D&D never left the model of killing monsters and taking their stuff. It's not like you can't play it differently and it's not that the modern modules for D&D don't have any plot. But the system is still geared towards the roots and a substantial part of its players have their mind there.

It has, for example, puzzled me no end why some D&D fans mind skill lists when they're a de facto trad game standard in role-playing. Hardly any important trad RPG outside of D&D comes without them in one form or another, in particular skill lists where you have fine grain control over starting levels. But it's fairly clear: you don't need that for D&D's standard mode of play, at least not with any great degree of accuracy. You don't need skill lists for character customization here. There's less emphasis on having a character who is specifically good at fast-talking as opposed to a character who is specifically good at intimidation. There's a different focus instead: professional adventuring aka classes.

You say the above are bad mechanics but for killing monsters and taking their stuff it all works splendidly. You don't need anything more complicated than HPs (even HP bloat can be somewhat important if you want to play Level 1 to 20), classes define areas of specialization for professional adventurers and the d20 is sufficient for all purposes here. Same goes for Advantage/Disadvantage, which is too imprecise for the types of games I like - but it's fully sufficient if the game's focus is killing monsters and taking their stuff.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084131And that's fine, I'm OK with that.  I just don't get the "let's gut everything out of D&D...but it'll still be D&D" mindset.

Because people think D&D is just #1 one because it was first, and the mechanics are"soooo baddddd...". That if only,  *Insert preferred system here* was in it's place that they would be #1 instead.

Which is of course, mostly nonsense.

Not that being the market leader isn't powerful, but there were other factors in play early on.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1084152Not a big fan of those either but the "D&D's 5 point winning formula..." thread has given me an epiphany: I think D&D never left the model of killing monsters and taking their stuff. It's not like you can't play it differently and it's not that the modern modules for D&D don't have any plot. But the system is still geared towards the roots and a substantial part of its players have their mind there.

I think that you are right here.

Maybe this mentality is even re-enforced by the nature of RPG video games that have done a lot to solidify the default D&D play style..?

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1084152It has, for example, puzzled me no end why some D&D fans mind skill lists when they're a de facto trad game standard in role-playing. Hardly any important trad RPG outside of D&D comes without them in one form or another,....

Being someone who has always played multiple systems from the get go, It took me a bit to wrap my head around.

But it finally hit me that with D&D players making up the overwhelming majority of the hobby, It is actually all the other the skill based games that are the outliers!

People who play multiple systems like me, are actually very much the minority in the RPG hobby.

But, It doesn't seem that way from the inside looking out!

Especially since there are literally hundreds of different systems for us to play.

I mean you have all of these other systems, and then there is just D&D.

But from the outside looking in, Or a D&D only players perspective:

Everyone is doing D&D, and then you have a handful of people out there playing around with niche RPG's that work differently than D&D for some reason, and that 'nobody' plays.

Bah...

Skill lists have their problems too (especially in the form of stat+skill) and they've become increasingly evident over the years.  That's more well known now then it was in the past.  At the time of 3.0 including a skill list was just seen as updating D&D to keep in line with modern game design tech.  A lot of people I knew refused to play AD&D because "it doesn't even have any skills".

That's not necessarily the case anymore - there's a broader range of approaches available.

I like skill lists (more or less), but in the case of the recent edition even I can see that 5E's skill list is lazy and vestigial and that taking it out is more empowering to players.   (Especially if you want to do more than explore dungeons and kill monsters - remove the skills and you also remove that gaps - ie the Fighter is not worse at rallying troops than a bard because the only vaguely relevant skill is "Persuasion")

In the case of D&D integrating skills with a system based around classes effectively is still an unsolved problem (at least so long as those classes remain something more than combat roles and therefore require niche protection).

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083870Why do people want D&D to not be D&D

Because they want DnD without all the dumb bits that otherwise ruin the full DnD experience.

Quote from: Shasarak;1084167Because they want DnD without all the dumb bits that otherwise ruin the full DnD experience.

That's not the thesis, though.

Quote from: Simlasa;1084029Why they want to try to change the game I like, rather than just go play their Savage Worlds/Fate/PBTA game still baffles me.

Two reasons.

1. They find some aspects of the game you like very annoying. So they want to change the parts they don't like and keep the rest. People started doing that to D&D about 5 minutes after the second DM in the world decided to run a game of D&D. And since people don't all agree on which aspects of the game they like and which they find annoying....

2. Because they can't find someone else they know to play the game they want to play

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084035If I serve you spaghetti in a soup bowl I can insist all night that it's soup but that doesn't make it so.

Depends on how much liquid is mixed in with the tomato paste. Keep adding liquid and at some point you have tomato noodle soup.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1084194That's not the thesis, though.

It is if the dumb bits that they want to get rid of are the bits you like about DnD and then its all "Why do people want D&D to not be D&D"

Quote from: Bren;10841971. They find some aspects of the game you like very annoying. So they want to change the parts they don't like and keep the rest. People started doing that to D&D about 5 minutes after the second DM in the world decided to run a game of D&D.

It made sense when D&D was the only dog in the kennel... there was/is stuff in D&D I didn't/don't like and I was happy when I found other games.
Tweaking rules never bothered me, but the stuff I'm referring to is not so much changing the 'annoying' bits as wanting to adopt elements of other systems that they prefer... such as injecting some form of Fate's 'Aspects' into non-Fate games, or adding Disadvantage/Advantage rules, or 'Feats' to things that don't have them. There are plenty of games WITH those things already... go play those. It feels more like, "I like this game, all games should be like this game."

Quote2. Because they can't find someone else they know to play the game they want to play

Yet the games elements I see them pushing are found in systems that appear to be quite popular... Fate, Savage Worlds, D&D, PBTA[/QUOTE]

Quote from: Shasarak;1084211It is if the dumb bits that they want to get rid of are the bits you like about DnD and then its all "Why do people want D&D to not be D&D"

For example, everyone who wants lower less complicated magic in D&D, aka the only thing D&D specifically does really well is it's indepth and complicated magic systems that has actual rules for high magic.

Like I can appreciate OSR games going more gritty and keeping magic the hand-wavy thing they experienced as low level adventurers in the 70s and 80s that the DM never bothered to have to read the actual rules for. But if we are talking about specifically what games with the D&D logo on them do that's just better done than other games available, it's the thorough magic system. Most of those "better magic system" games tend to be "flexible" and require GM-fiat or interpretation to work. D&D is explicate.

D&D has become less about the system than it has become about the setting(s) and conceits that are more or less unique to it.

I'm less enamored with the cult that in the name of brand recognition tribalizes under their Edition-banner like foot-soldiers among warring kings. People have been tweaking D&D since before *dice* were even in mainstream use (WOO! Chits!). The difference now is it's become a branded commodity with Corporate Authorities telling you how to do it. And new official editions come out to keep those people chasing after that dream of the perfect D&D game.

At some point most people get tired of chasing after this illusion that the perfect "way" of doing D&D is out there. But have no fear, someone will pick up your banner and carry on the war.

But you... you will realize that the greatness of D&D is *exactly* where you left it. It is exactly where you stepped off that path to check out the new "shiny" thing. And it's been there the whole time, waiting for you. Then you'll know liberation.

Part of it is just that D&D is (far & away) the market leader and people like to complain and even ask for things that they don't really want if they were to take costs into account.

I always think of my mother complaining about how grocery stores should have baggers and people who help you take stuff to your car, but she (like most people) still went to the cheapest grocery store instead of the old ones where people actually did that (which caused their higher prices).

One of the first things that new players often complain about is how unrealistic HP is - and they come up with many different "better" and more "realistic" ways to handle damage. However, they're always a hot mess to actually use because of the complexity cost - even those that seem cool at first glance. Which is why most games stick with some variant of HP.

"Why do people want D&D to not be like D&D"?

Mostly Marxism.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1085912"Why do people want D&D to not be like D&D"?

Mostly Marxism.

Greetings!

Hello Pundit! Can you go into more detail in how Marxism relates to their attitudes about changing D and D?

I'd love to hear your thoughts and analysis on that, Pundit!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083870I just see posts every now and again where people wanna throw everything away that makes D&D D&D except the name and I don't get that.  Is it a case of just wanting your not-D&D game to suddenly be the 800lb gorilla?

Genuinely curious.

D&D in various forms already exists.  If you're not doing something different, then there isn't much point.  

I mean, we could argue that 'the powers that be' should support one edition or another, but if they're trying to create something NEW, they arguably MUST create something DIFFERENT.