Quote from: Daztur;1081699In retrospect the best thing for Paizo to have done would be to take their 4ed-era profits and stick them in an index fund. Paizo's ability to consolidate the "people who liked 3.5ed" market took brains, just look at how fragmented the OSR market is compared to PF's dominance. But the "people who liked 3.5ed" market segment would inevitably wither and it was dependent on WotC continuing to be incompetant as a DnD edition that didn't suck would clearly yank the rug out from under them.

Instead Paizo got way too overconfident. The online game was sheer lunacy for example.

Have to say I concur 100% with all your points!

Quote from: Daztur;1081699In retrospect the best thing for Paizo to have done would be to take their 4ed-era profits and stick them in an index fund. Paizo's ability to consolidate the "people who liked 3.5ed" market took brains, just look at how fragmented the OSR market is compared to PF's dominance. But the "people who liked 3.5ed" market segment would inevitably wither and it was dependent on WotC continuing to be incompetant as a DnD edition that didn't suck would clearly yank the rug out from under them.

Instead Paizo got way too overconfident. The online game was sheer lunacy for example.

Our group would probably still be playing Pathfinder if they released something like "the Advance Class Guide 2" and at least one person bought every bestiary.

Quote from: Daztur;1081699In retrospect the best thing for Paizo to have done would be to take their 4ed-era profits and stick them in an index fund. Paizo's ability to consolidate the "people who liked 3.5ed" market took brains, just look at how fragmented the OSR market is compared to PF's dominance. But the "people who liked 3.5ed" market segment would inevitably wither and it was dependent on WotC continuing to be incompetant as a DnD edition that didn't suck would clearly yank the rug out from under them.

Instead Paizo got way too overconfident. The online game was sheer lunacy for example.

They also got suckered....drank the Ryan Dancey Kool-Aid as I recall.

Has Paizo Inc. made any investments into Goblinworks Inc. ?

I know that Goblinworks was setup as a wholly separate company than Paizo, and that, at least initially, Paizo wasn't putting much, if any, of their money into the new company.

Goblinworks had a couple of Kickstarters for PFO and raised something like $1.3 million across those.

Doesn't seem "too overconfident" if they're shielding the profitable business (Paizo) from the potentially unprofitable business (Goblinworks).

The Kingmaker computer game is a licensed work, so it's not like Paizo is out of pocket on that one, either.

Quote from: Daztur;1081699In retrospect the best thing for Paizo to have done would be to take their 4ed-era profits and stick them in an index fund. Paizo's ability to consolidate the "people who liked 3.5ed" market took brains, just look at how fragmented the OSR market is compared to PF's dominance. But the "people who liked 3.5ed" market segment would inevitably wither and it was dependent on WotC continuing to be incompetant as a DnD edition that didn't suck would clearly yank the rug out from under them.

Instead Paizo got way too overconfident. The online game was sheer lunacy for example.

S'what I've been saying.  They got the business down, game design?  Not so much.

Quote from: camazotz;1081747They also got suckered....drank the Ryan Dancey Kool-Aid as I recall.

A lot of people do, and somehow whenever he ruins something by just opening his mouth, people still think his opinion is valid...

Quote from: kythri;1081748Has Paizo Inc. made any investments into Goblinworks Inc. ?

I know that Goblinworks was setup as a wholly separate company than Paizo, and that, at least initially, Paizo wasn't putting much, if any, of their money into the new company.

Goblinworks had a couple of Kickstarters for PFO and raised something like $1.3 million across those.

Doesn't seem "too overconfident" if they're shielding the profitable business (Paizo) from the potentially unprofitable business (Goblinworks).

The Kingmaker computer game is a licensed work, so it's not like Paizo is out of pocket on that one, either.

I've had a bit of experience with how this works. Odds are that there was some indirect financial impact on Paizo as a result of Goblinworks....and we know they were commingling staff at some point (at least Lisa seemed to be working for both companies). Keeping them separate was smart, as it pushed the liability of failure on Goblinworks, but I doubt that Paizo got away from it without losing some money.

The real fallout though is name association....PFO amounted to a Kickstarter failure in the eyes of many, followed by being an online game failure that for those with more familiarity with the video game industry was clearly doomed from the start (one of the reasons I did not back the KS).

They are making smarter decisions, though...their deal with the producer of Pathfinder: Kingmaker seems to have been much more successful, and the resulting game is both playable and fun as well as shockingly accurate as a Pathfinder simulator goes. Complete 180 from what PFO failed at.

Quote from: camazotz;1081760I've had a bit of experience with how this works. Odds are that there was some indirect financial impact on Paizo as a result of Goblinworks....and we know they were commingling staff at some point (at least Lisa seemed to be working for both companies). Keeping them separate was smart, as it pushed the liability of failure on Goblinworks, but I doubt that Paizo got away from it without losing some money.

Well, she's the owner of both companies.  I know that Paizo made money on the Kickstarters, because there were Paizo books (including Kickstarter-special books) that were backer rewards.  I'm sure Paizo was paid with Kickstarter funds for all of that jazz.

Quote from: camazotz;1081760The real fallout though is name association....PFO amounted to a Kickstarter failure in the eyes of many, followed by being an online game failure that for those with more familiarity with the video game industry was clearly doomed from the start (one of the reasons I did not back the KS).

Are there really people out there, that due to the lack of success of PFO, were swayed away from Paizo's trad-RPG products?

Quote from: kythri;1081765Are there really people out there, that due to the lack of success of PFO, were swayed away from Paizo's trad-RPG products?

Customers?  Not likely.  Investors?  Hell, YES.

Paizo isn't traded, so what investors are we talking about here?

Quote from: kythri;1081774Paizo isn't traded, so what investors are we talking about here?

They live where all the full-time salary WotC RPG developers do (aside from Mearls and Crawford).

Quote from: camazotz;1081760I've had a bit of experience with how this works. Odds are that there was some indirect financial impact on Paizo as a result of Goblinworks....and we know they were commingling staff at some point (at least Lisa seemed to be working for both companies). Keeping them separate was smart, as it pushed the liability of failure on Goblinworks, but I doubt that Paizo got away from it without losing some money.

The real fallout though is name association....PFO amounted to a Kickstarter failure in the eyes of many, followed by being an online game failure that for those with more familiarity with the video game industry was clearly doomed from the start (one of the reasons I did not back the KS).

They are making smarter decisions, though...their deal with the producer of Pathfinder: Kingmaker seems to have been much more successful, and the resulting game is both playable and fun as well as shockingly accurate as a Pathfinder simulator goes. Complete 180 from what PFO failed at.

I seem to recall that she'd made some financial investment (and maybe some others at Paizo) but there was a lot of Kickstarter money behind it. A lot of Pathfinder fans invested in that Kickstarter, so I was surprised there wasn't much in the way of blow back. If I am recollecting as well, they may have also bought a license for Bigworld (sort of an MMO platform) when it was still rather expensive. I think what happened was that the had a few people that had very little experience in development calling the shots and they blew through it all before they had something resembling an alpha.

Quote from: camazotz;1081760I've had a bit of experience with how this works. Odds are that there was some indirect financial impact on Paizo as a result of Goblinworks....and we know they were commingling staff at some point (at least Lisa seemed to be working for both companies). Keeping them separate was smart, as it pushed the liability of failure on Goblinworks, but I doubt that Paizo got away from it without losing some money.

The real fallout though is name association....PFO amounted to a Kickstarter failure in the eyes of many, followed by being an online game failure that for those with more familiarity with the video game industry was clearly doomed from the start (one of the reasons I did not back the KS).

They are making smarter decisions, though...their deal with the producer of Pathfinder: Kingmaker seems to have been much more successful, and the resulting game is both playable and fun as well as shockingly accurate as a Pathfinder simulator goes. Complete 180 from what PFO failed at.

I supported the PFO kickstarter and I do not feel like it was a failure.  Even though the actual online part of it never worked out for me I still have the Emerald Spire Superdungeon and assorted products that came with it.

I also supported the Kingmaker kickstarter and that worked out a lot better then I expected so honestly Pathfinder kickstarters have been more successful then not in my experience.

Quote from: Shasarak;1081836I supported the PFO kickstarter and I do not feel like it was a failure.  Even though the actual online part of it never worked out for me I still have the Emerald Spire Superdungeon and assorted products that came with it.

I also supported the Kingmaker kickstarter and that worked out a lot better then I expected so honestly Pathfinder kickstarters have been more successful then not in my experience.

Isn't that a $25 item that you bought for way more than $25? That sure seems like denial to me. It was a failure. ONLINE is in the friggen title even. You did not get what you invested in.

Quote from: Mistwell;1081980Isn't that a $25 item that you bought for way more than $25? That sure seems like denial to me. It was a failure. ONLINE is in the friggen title even. You did not get what you invested in.

You know that Pathfinder Online is an actual thing, right?

Maybe you can explain to me how running a kickstarter to make a thing and then making that thing means that it was actually a failure.

Quote from: Shasarak;1081990You know that Pathfinder Online is an actual thing, right?

Maybe you can explain to me how running a kickstarter to make a thing and then making that thing means that it was actually a failure.

Vaporware is a thing?