Quote from: S'mon;1078964It's because players GMs & writers are coming from a Christian monotheist mindset. In my FR game I have had players whose PCs worship Mielikki the Forest Goddess unsure if it was ok to pray to Kelemvor the nice-guy God of the Dead in order to get their friend Raised! I had to assure them Mielikki wouldn't mind.

Except that, unless you pick a patron god in FR (and the actual creator deity Ao doesn't count... he demands you worship hopped-up mortals as your gods), then you get cast into the Wall of the Faithless (along with babies, small children and anyone incapable of the level of reason needed to choose a patron... have I mentioned I find FR's cosmology utterly horrific). As a result I can see the source of the confusion... if you're required to give your faith to just one god (Monolatry) on pain of a horrific afterlife then praying to other gods, even for things in their wheelhouse, does seem out of place.

The real problem is not simply that they're coming from a monotheistic mindset, its that they want all the Medieval trapping that come from having the institution of the Catholic Church, but have a pagan polytheistic pantheon for whatever reason (originally probably because of all the Greco-Roman/Norse myths and monsters... these days it's probably a mix of inertia and because anything Christian is evil incarnate to the SJWs).

The problem is that genuine polytheism doesn't look anything like the Roman Catholic Church and to get there they ended up going the Monoaltry path where each god is a religion unto itself, complete with it's own moral tenants (which could totally contradict those of another god of the same alignment). The net result is the religious life of most D&D settings end up looking more like American Protestant Christianity with a different denomination's church on every street corner.

Frankly, I think the early D&D settings made a LOT more sense with their generic higher power that clerics received their power from. Even if it's a polytheistic faith, the power all coming from the same general place means that saying prayers to gods specific to the situation doesn't smack into the "must have a specific patron god" element later versions took up.

ETA: as I understand it, the official way religion works in FR for raise dead is that you’d pray to Mielikki (your patron) to intercede with Kelemvor (who controls the aspect of death) to have the person raised.

Forgotten Realms is the poster child for what I call the 'Symbiotic Henotheism' side of D&D religion. Dragonlance is a better representative of the 'Neutralist Relativism' side, to the point that one of the last novels had a 'Good' god declaring: "What we believe is not important. That we believe is."

I was tempted to call it Henotheism at first too, but technically Henotheism is belief that IF there are other gods they're not relevant to the world at all. It's essentially "live and let live, even if those other guys are completely wrong about their faith."

"Monolatry" is more apt as it refers to giving sole devotion to one god within a framework where other gods are known to exist and work in the world.

Quote from: Chris24601;1078987I was tempted to call it Henotheism at first too, but technically Henotheism is belief that IF there are other gods they're not relevant to the world at all. It's essentially "live and let live, even if those other guys are completely wrong about their faith."

"Monolatry" is more apt as it refers to giving sole devotion to one god within a framework where other gods are known to exist and work in the world.

   Thanks. I did Theology, not Religious Studies.

Quote from: Chris24601;1078981Except that, unless you pick a patron god in FR (and the actual creator deity Ao doesn't count... he demands you worship hopped-up mortals as your gods), then you get cast into the Wall of the Faithless (along with babies, small children and anyone incapable of the level of reason needed to choose a patron... have I mentioned I find FR's cosmology utterly horrific). As a result I can see the source of the confusion... if you're required to give your faith to just one god (Monolatry) on pain of a horrific afterlife then praying to other gods, even for things in their wheelhouse, does seem out of place.

ETA: as I understand it, the official way religion works in FR for raise dead is that you'd pray to Mielikki (your patron) to intercede with Kelemvor (who controls the aspect of death) to have the person raised.

It was a 4e FR game. Wall of the Faithless not mentioned in 4e FRCS or used IMC.
They needed a priestess of Kelemvor, Treona the Wise Woman, to raise the fallen; she was the one with the Raise Dead ritual.
I guess maybe the players had read older FR fiction or played the computer games - the player most worried was an ex fiction writer for WoTC, she knows Bob Salvatore I think, so the former seems likely!

Quote from: Chris24601;1078981Except that, unless you pick a patron god in FR (and the actual creator deity Ao doesn't count... he demands you worship hopped-up mortals as your gods), then you get cast into the Wall of the Faithless (along with babies, small children and anyone incapable of the level of reason needed to choose a patron... have I mentioned I find FR's cosmology utterly horrific). As a result I can see the source of the confusion... if you're required to give your faith to just one god (Monolatry) on pain of a horrific afterlife then praying to other gods, even for things in their wheelhouse, does seem out of place.

I do not see any thing inherently more utterly horrific with the Wall of the Faithless compared to souls ending up in either Hell or the Abyss for example.

Having an equivalent of a "Wall of the Faithless" is just a good idea for all Gods to agree to on a purely practical basis.  People have to pick a God or else, and dont complain that we did not warn you.

Quote from: Shasarak;1079062I do not see any thing inherently more utterly horrific with the Wall of the Faithless compared to souls ending up in either Hell or the Abyss for example.

Having an equivalent of a "Wall of the Faithless" is just a good idea for all Gods to agree to on a purely practical basis.  People have to pick a God or else, and dont complain that we did not warn you.

The ones in Hell chose to go there. Throwing babies into a wall to be slowly dissolved is utterly horrific.

The "gods" (i.e. hopped-up mortals, not a creator or establisher of morality) tormenting people for not kowtowing to them so they can suck power from their devotion makes them tyrannical dictators running a protection racket. Every single one is evil, regardless of what the alignment wheel might claim.

The only moral course is to find a portal to some other realm and smuggle as many people out as you can (failing that, undeath and deicide also rank as more moral than supporting the current system).

Let's remember too that even if you're one of the faithful you only become a petitioner for a hundred years or so before your consciousness is dissolved and what's left turns into a part of the landscape. Soylant Green/Landscaping is People. And that's only if your patron deity doesn't need you for something more specific first. Pity the poor peritioner who arrives when the privy needs a new seat. Maybe one in a few thousand gets turned into a celestial of some type by having their personality erased.

The Forgotten Realms is a Hell Dimension. It wasn't intended to be one any more than San Francisco was intended to be a shit, needle and homeless camp covered hellhole; but poorly thought out strings of bad decisions by leftists (most notably the Time of Troubles... aka the Root of All Woes*) tends to have that sort of effect on things.

* The Time of Troubles instituted three major changes to the FR cosmology all at once without considering the full ramifications of them; it introduced a supreme God (Ao) whom all the other gods served, it required the gods to draw strength from mortal worship and it establishes that the gods are just mortals who acquired a divine spark by some means and who can be killed and replaced.

Any ONE of those would have been major, but survivable, on its own. Combined they were a lethal cocktail that required draconian action that turned the entire pantheon into monsters preying on mortals to keep the basic D&D setting assumptions intact.

Supreme Overgod acting through lesser gods? Sure. The lesser gods are still greater created beings created by the Overgod to administer His Will.

Gods require worship for strength? Very democratic sounding... the gods are effectively subject to the will of the people. Which makes sense right up until you give them a boss who would logically be worshipped by anyone who doesn't want to settle for second best in terms of who they give praise to. But at least they're still the founders of the moral order right?

Nope, the gods are just hopped-up mortals; different only from a wizard or sorcerer only in scale, not kind. They're no more the source of moral authority than a strongman is. Which would be fine if their powers weren't tied to making other people worship them.

In short it's a perfect storm where in the span of a single novel series they introduce a supreme God more worthy of worship than any of the others (Ao even kicked off the Time of Troubles because the lesser gods were ignoring their responsibilities to mortals), then introduce the change that gods would now be dependent on how many worshipers they have (which might almost work if the gods were at least the incarnation of what they embodied... so the god of justice was created by Ao to embody perfect justice) and then to cap it off revealed that pretty much all the gods were just upcharged mortals who hold power over the portfolios but can be killed or otherwise replaced and these mortals have been told their continued power depends on having as many worshipers as possible.

Basically, they had to turn Ao into a dick who actively punished anyone who tried to worship the true creator of the cosmos (because that would ruin D&Ds polytheistic presumptions) and created the Wall of the Faithless because how dare someone not devote themselves to the worship of a hopped-up mortal?

The end result is a system where the only true God (i.e. creator entity who is whole and complete even without worship) is devoted to forcing his creations to worship false gods who in turn run a supernatural protection racket on the mortals to ensure maximum spiritual energy extraction from the people they're supposed to be serving.

Leftist even screw up their fictional worlds the same way they do the real world.

Quote from: Chris24601;1079092The ones in Hell chose to go there. Throwing babies into a wall to be slowly dissolved is utterly horrific.

The "gods" (i.e. hopped-up mortals, not a creator or establisher of morality) tormenting people for not kowtowing to them so they can suck power from their devotion makes them tyrannical dictators running a protection racket. Every single one is evil, regardless of what the alignment wheel might claim.

The only moral course is to find a portal to some other realm and smuggle as many people out as you can (failing that, undeath and deicide also rank as more moral than supporting the current system).

Let's remember too that even if you're one of the faithful you only become a petitioner for a hundred years or so before your consciousness is dissolved and what's left turns into a part of the landscape. Soylant Green/Landscaping is People. And that's only if your patron deity doesn't need you for something more specific first. Pity the poor peritioner who arrives when the privy needs a new seat. Maybe one in a few thousand gets turned into a celestial of some type by having their personality erased.

The Forgotten Realms is a Hell Dimension. It wasn't intended to be one any more than San Francisco was intended to be a shit, needle and homeless camp covered hellhole; but poorly thought out strings of bad decisions by leftists (most notably the Time of Troubles... aka the Root of All Woes*) tends to have that sort of effect on things.

* The Time of Troubles instituted three major changes to the FR cosmology all at once without considering the full ramifications of them; it introduced a supreme God (Ao) whom all the other gods served, it required the gods to draw strength from mortal worship and it establishes that the gods are just mortals who acquired a divine spark by some means and who can be killed and replaced.

Any ONE of those would have been major, but survivable, on its own. Combined they were a lethal cocktail that required draconian action that turned the entire pantheon into monsters preying on mortals to keep the basic D&D setting assumptions intact.

Supreme Overgod acting through lesser gods? Sure. The lesser gods are still greater created beings created by the Overgod to administer His Will.

Gods require worship for strength? Very democratic sounding... the gods are effectively subject to the will of the people. Which makes sense right up until you give them a boss who would logically be worshipped by anyone who doesn't want to settle for second best in terms of who they give praise to. But at least they're still the founders of the moral order right?

Nope, the gods are just hopped-up mortals; different only from a wizard or sorcerer only in scale, not kind. They're no more the source of moral authority than a strongman is. Which would be fine if their powers weren't tied to making other people worship them.

In short it's a perfect storm where in the span of a single novel series they introduce a supreme God more worthy of worship than any of the others (Ao even kicked off the Time of Troubles because the lesser gods were ignoring their responsibilities to mortals), then introduce the change that gods would now be dependent on how many worshipers they have (which might almost work if the gods were at least the incarnation of what they embodied... so the god of justice was created by Ao to embody perfect justice) and then to cap it off revealed that pretty much all the gods were just upcharged mortals who hold power over the portfolios but can be killed or otherwise replaced and these mortals have been told their continued power depends on having as many worshipers as possible.

Basically, they had to turn Ao into a dick who actively punished anyone who tried to worship the true creator of the cosmos (because that would ruin D&Ds polytheistic presumptions) and created the Wall of the Faithless because how dare someone not devote themselves to the worship of a hopped-up mortal?

The end result is a system where the only true God (i.e. creator entity who is whole and complete even without worship) is devoted to forcing his creations to worship false gods who in turn run a supernatural protection racket on the mortals to ensure maximum spiritual energy extraction from the people they're supposed to be serving.

Leftist even screw up their fictional worlds the same way they do the real world.

Greetings!

Very nice analysis of Forgotten Realms Cosmology, Chris! I agree with you, FR cosmology is just...terrible. Back in the *Grey Box* days, it seemed somehow primordial, and rough, not entirely different from the Greyhawk Cosmology. I have always had my own World of Thandor, so whatever was going on in FR was not critical or important to my own campaigns at all. In my World of Thandor, I specifically do not get into too much detail of cosmology, prefering to have much of the afterlife and the supernatural, and the way various divine deities and powers operate as being mysterious, and largely unknowable by mortals. This element of mystery and a degree of uncertainty holds true even for clerics, priests, and the most devout of worshippers. I must say, it has been entirely sufficient for running campaigns, and has also provided enough mystery and inspiration simultaneously, to keep player characters satisfied and content, as well as providing enough cosmological depth for various religions throughout the campaign world. That's how I run it, and I'm absolutely convinced that it is the best way to handle the campaign's cosmology and religion.

However, along the way, I have also been a solid fan of FR. I have most of all the game supplements for FR throughout the years, as well as many of the novels. Having said that, the novels are entirely garbage and incoherent Liberal fuzzy nonsense when it comes to determining campaign parameters for the actual *game*. You cited the much-hated "Time of Troubles." Exactly. That's part of the problem with atheistic, mushy-minded Liberals though--their religious cosmology is essentially one big Happy Rainbow Barney land, which has to play suck up to the vanity of humanity in an all-inclusive soup where everyone is indulged with sweet Liberal atheistic or humanistic dreams. The FR correlation with any kind of divine cosmology that actually makes sense or has any merit for being taken seriously is so pathetic and convoluted, it is really an artistic tragedy.

I have never since been able to take FR seriously. Year by year, edition by edition, the FR world has become a sad mockery and an incoherent mess, when compared to what was presented in FR *The Grey Box*. There's certainly parts and aspects of FR that I still enjoy, admire, and appreciate, but the narrative/story/cosmology is absolute garbage. If one was a real fan of using FR as a campaign world, you would be better served by keeping the world, and scrubbing the FR cosmology entirely, and installing your own. Whatever you come up with is doubtlessly more coherent and meaningful than what FR has become, and also likely to not insult the intellect and or spiritual sensibilities of your players, either. Or, alternatively, just absolutely ignore virtually anything that has come after the *Grey Box*.

SHARK lights up his Savenelli pipe, smoking some fine tobacco. You know, Chris, I really hate the FR cosmology. It's such a travesty what that game world has come to through the years. Tragic indeed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Chris24601;1079092The ones in Hell chose to go there. Throwing babies into a wall to be slowly dissolved is utterly horrific.

If the babies parents did not want them to be thrown into the wall then they would have been "baptised" or what ever the FR equivalent is so that they would not be.  It is not rocket science, if you live in the FR then you know what the stakes are.  If your baby ends up in the Wall then its because you are a utterly horrific parent just like anti-vaxers are now.

QuoteThe "gods" (i.e. hopped-up mortals, not a creator or establisher of morality) tormenting people for not kowtowing to them so they can suck power from their devotion makes them tyrannical dictators running a protection racket. Every single one is evil, regardless of what the alignment wheel might claim.

The only moral course is to find a portal to some other realm and smuggle as many people out as you can (failing that, undeath and deicide also rank as more moral than supporting the current system).

Let's remember too that even if you're one of the faithful you only become a petitioner for a hundred years or so before your consciousness is dissolved and what's left turns into a part of the landscape. Soylant Green/Landscaping is People. And that's only if your patron deity doesn't need you for something more specific first. Pity the poor peritioner who arrives when the privy needs a new seat. Maybe one in a few thousand gets turned into a celestial of some type by having their personality erased.

The Forgotten Realms is a Hell Dimension. It wasn't intended to be one any more than San Francisco was intended to be a shit, needle and homeless camp covered hellhole; but poorly thought out strings of bad decisions by leftists (most notably the Time of Troubles... aka the Root of All Woes*) tends to have that sort of effect on things.

* The Time of Troubles instituted three major changes to the FR cosmology all at once without considering the full ramifications of them; it introduced a supreme God (Ao) whom all the other gods served, it required the gods to draw strength from mortal worship and it establishes that the gods are just mortals who acquired a divine spark by some means and who can be killed and replaced.

Any ONE of those would have been major, but survivable, on its own. Combined they were a lethal cocktail that required draconian action that turned the entire pantheon into monsters preying on mortals to keep the basic D&D setting assumptions intact.

Supreme Overgod acting through lesser gods? Sure. The lesser gods are still greater created beings created by the Overgod to administer His Will.

Gods require worship for strength? Very democratic sounding... the gods are effectively subject to the will of the people. Which makes sense right up until you give them a boss who would logically be worshipped by anyone who doesn't want to settle for second best in terms of who they give praise to. But at least they're still the founders of the moral order right?

Nope, the gods are just hopped-up mortals; different only from a wizard or sorcerer only in scale, not kind. They're no more the source of moral authority than a strongman is. Which would be fine if their powers weren't tied to making other people worship them.

In short it's a perfect storm where in the span of a single novel series they introduce a supreme God more worthy of worship than any of the others (Ao even kicked off the Time of Troubles because the lesser gods were ignoring their responsibilities to mortals), then introduce the change that gods would now be dependent on how many worshipers they have (which might almost work if the gods were at least the incarnation of what they embodied... so the god of justice was created by Ao to embody perfect justice) and then to cap it off revealed that pretty much all the gods were just upcharged mortals who hold power over the portfolios but can be killed or otherwise replaced and these mortals have been told their continued power depends on having as many worshipers as possible.

Basically, they had to turn Ao into a dick who actively punished anyone who tried to worship the true creator of the cosmos (because that would ruin D&Ds polytheistic presumptions) and created the Wall of the Faithless because how dare someone not devote themselves to the worship of a hopped-up mortal?

The end result is a system where the only true God (i.e. creator entity who is whole and complete even without worship) is devoted to forcing his creations to worship false gods who in turn run a supernatural protection racket on the mortals to ensure maximum spiritual energy extraction from the people they're supposed to be serving.

Leftist even screw up their fictional worlds the same way they do the real world.

I dont see any inherent problem with Gods being powerful mortals, that is exactly the way that the DnD level system works, characters gaining experience by sucking it out of someone else.  And if you think that system turns into a world into a Hell dimension then you have not really seen the plane in question.  There really is a (9) Hell dimension and strangely it does not look very much like the Forgotten Realms.

If you do worship a God then why would you have a problem becoming one with them after you die?  I mean I am trying to see the draw back there for a worshiper.  As for your other comments well yeah Ao is a bit of stretch but with the "Simulation" theory it probably makes sense from that perspective.

Quote from: SHARK;1079100Greetings!

Very nice analysis of Forgotten Realms Cosmology, Chris! I agree with you, FR cosmology is just...terrible. Back in the *Grey Box* days, it seemed somehow primordial, and rough, not entirely different from the Greyhawk Cosmology. I have always had my own World of Thandor, so whatever was going on in FR was not critical or important to my own campaigns at all. In my World of Thandor, I specifically do not get into too much detail of cosmology, prefering to have much of the afterlife and the supernatural, and the way various divine deities and powers operate as being mysterious, and largely unknowable by mortals. This element of mystery and a degree of uncertainty holds true even for clerics, priests, and the most devout of worshippers. I must say, it has been entirely sufficient for running campaigns, and has also provided enough mystery and inspiration simultaneously, to keep player characters satisfied and content, as well as providing enough cosmological depth for various religions throughout the campaign world. That's how I run it, and I'm absolutely convinced that it is the best way to handle the campaign's cosmology and religion.

However, along the way, I have also been a solid fan of FR. I have most of all the game supplements for FR throughout the years, as well as many of the novels. Having said that, the novels are entirely garbage and incoherent Liberal fuzzy nonsense when it comes to determining campaign parameters for the actual *game*. You cited the much-hated "Time of Troubles." Exactly. That's part of the problem with atheistic, mushy-minded Liberals though--their religious cosmology is essentially one big Happy Rainbow Barney land, which has to play suck up to the vanity of humanity in an all-inclusive soup where everyone is indulged with sweet Liberal atheistic or humanistic dreams. The FR correlation with any kind of divine cosmology that actually makes sense or has any merit for being taken seriously is so pathetic and convoluted, it is really an artistic tragedy.

I have never since been able to take FR seriously. Year by year, edition by edition, the FR world has become a sad mockery and an incoherent mess, when compared to what was presented in FR *The Grey Box*. There's certainly parts and aspects of FR that I still enjoy, admire, and appreciate, but the narrative/story/cosmology is absolute garbage. If one was a real fan of using FR as a campaign world, you would be better served by keeping the world, and scrubbing the FR cosmology entirely, and installing your own. Whatever you come up with is doubtlessly more coherent and meaningful than what FR has become, and also likely to not insult the intellect and or spiritual sensibilities of your players, either. Or, alternatively, just absolutely ignore virtually anything that has come after the *Grey Box*.

SHARK lights up his Savenelli pipe, smoking some fine tobacco. You know, Chris, I really hate the FR cosmology. It's such a travesty what that game world has come to through the years. Tragic indeed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey, SHARK

My first experiences with the Forgotten Realms were through the Douglas Niles novels about the Moonshae Isles and I have to say that they completely disagree with your assessment of the "one big Happy Rainbow Barney land" cosmology.  Maybe with that as my touchstone the Forgotten Realms looks much darker then your experience.

For example, if there really are Gods of Murder, Assassins and Tyranny out to get you then all of a sudden those Gods of Beauty, Magic or the Sun do not look so threatening anymore.  When hordes of Orcs can come boiling out of the mountains, packs of Trolls from the swamps or flights of Dragons from who knows where all wanting to kill your worshipers then I would imagine you make peace with the other "good" guys because who needs to start a war on all fronts?

No offense to you SHARK but the Forgotten Realms pantheons makes just as much sense as any other pantheon that I have seen.

Quote from: Shasarak;1079109Hey, SHARK

My first experiences with the Forgotten Realms were through the Douglas Niles novels about the Moonshae Isles and I have to say that they completely disagree with your assessment of the "one big Happy Rainbow Barney land" cosmology.  Maybe with that as my touchstone the Forgotten Realms looks much darker then your experience.

For example, if there really are Gods of Murder, Assassins and Tyranny out to get you then all of a sudden those Gods of Beauty, Magic or the Sun do not look so threatening anymore.  When hordes of Orcs can come boiling out of the mountains, packs of Trolls from the swamps or flights of Dragons from who knows where all wanting to kill your worshipers then I would imagine you make peace with the other "good" guys because who needs to start a war on all fronts?

No offense to you SHARK but the Forgotten Realms pantheons makes just as much sense as any other pantheon that I have seen.

Greetings!

Hello, Shasarak! *bastard*!!:) I also have fond memories of the Moonshaes book, by Douglas Niles. I definitely agree that was certainly one of the better FR novels produced. However, Shasarak, it certainly *isn't* my contention that FR cosmology is bad per se *because* of lots of different evil gods and their minions, and also lots of neutral and good deities. I have no problem with that foundation, at all.

What I don't like, however, is making the "gods" just be juiced-up former mortals. I think that is just nonsense. I think the whole buffet of gods dying, being reborn, coming back, getting killed and replaced by goddess "X" and just all of that stuff after the "Time of Troubles" is where the cosmology begins to get fucked. Remember, many of the "In-Game" changes to FR were not, demonstrably, made for some legitimate mechanical reason. Rather, they were done so specifically in response to various changes and BS that came about directly from the *novels*. Then, after that, to make the world more in-line with the new edition they had some other terrible raft of changes to FR cosmology. From my perspective, from the "Time of Troubles" onwards, it was generally a cascade of poorly-constructed elements dealing with the world as a whole; the gods; and the cosmological framework. I think it was the "Spell Plague" or some BS. I can't cite them all at the moment--but there were a bunch of changes that were terrible. I remember at the time of release, reading through them, and wondering, "WTF?" you know? Am I making sense with my criticism? I hope so.

FR having many different pantheons of gods is not a problem. As you noted, most every other game-world also has multiple divine pantheons. The problems come from how WOTC, etc. has made canon the various cosmological foundations and relationships, both between the gods and mortals--and between each other. Those foundations, relationships, and mechanics become convoluted, and nonsensical, especially when taken as a whole. It is even more bewildering and frustrating because much of it has been constructed to assuage the humanistic sensibilities of Liberals, and also to embrace the numerous ideas pushed throughout a large number of FR novels, most of which, though not all, certainly--at the end of the day were mediocre at best. Even if one enjoys such novels as escapist literature, that is a whole different ballgame than actually *embracing* such narrative concepts and happenings as an essential part of the game world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1079116Greetings!

Hello, Shasarak! *bastard*!!:) I also have fond memories of the Moonshaes book, by Douglas Niles. I definitely agree that was certainly one of the better FR novels produced. However, Shasarak, it certainly *isn't* my contention that FR cosmology is bad per se *because* of lots of different evil gods and their minions, and also lots of neutral and good deities. I have no problem with that foundation, at all.

What I don't like, however, is making the "gods" just be juiced-up former mortals. I think that is just nonsense. I think the whole buffet of gods dying, being reborn, coming back, getting killed and replaced by goddess "X" and just all of that stuff after the "Time of Troubles" is where the cosmology begins to get fucked. Remember, many of the "In-Game" changes to FR were not, demonstrably, made for some legitimate mechanical reason. Rather, they were done so specifically in response to various changes and BS that came about directly from the *novels*. Then, after that, to make the world more in-line with the new edition they had some other terrible raft of changes to FR cosmology. From my perspective, from the "Time of Troubles" onwards, it was generally a cascade of poorly-constructed elements dealing with the world as a whole; the gods; and the cosmological framework. I think it was the "Spell Plague" or some BS. I can't cite them all at the moment--but there were a bunch of changes that were terrible. I remember at the time of release, reading through them, and wondering, "WTF?" you know? Am I making sense with my criticism? I hope so.

FR having many different pantheons of gods is not a problem. As you noted, most every other game-world also has multiple divine pantheons. The problems come from how WOTC, etc. has made canon the various cosmological foundations and relationships, both between the gods and mortals--and between each other. Those foundations, relationships, and mechanics become convoluted, and nonsensical, especially when taken as a whole. It is even more bewildering and frustrating because much of it has been constructed to assuage the humanistic sensibilities of Liberals, and also to embrace the numerous ideas pushed throughout a large number of FR novels, most of which, though not all, certainly--at the end of the day were mediocre at best. Even if one enjoys such novels as escapist literature, that is a whole different ballgame than actually *embracing* such narrative concepts and happenings as an essential part of the game world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

SHARK you have some good points there, certainly endless "Times of Trouble" just because TSR/WotC want to change the rules again was annoying.  In many ways I think the current 5e tactic of just not giving a shit how everything fits together is probably worse though it is just the final nail for me after the 4e version jumping the figurative SHARK so to speak.

My first experience with Gods in DnD was via the Deities and Demi-Gods book which listed the stats of the Gods and as we all know, if it has stats then it can be killed.  So it seemed only natural for that to then flow through to the Forgotten Realms where yes in fact Gods can be killed and powerful mortals (PCs?) can take their place.  Its not even a unique idea in DnD, the Gold box Immortal set allowed your character to become a Mystara "God".  To be honest the thought of a God in DnD that is the equivalent of a "Beard in the Sky" like Ao, omniscient and omnipotent does seem ridiculous and on the other hand it was just the one set of novels.

I can see how things look like a cascade of poorly thought out ideas.  I would say the reason is probably just because there were a large number of people implementing contradictory and poorly thought out ideas.  In some ways I prefer the convoluted mish mash of ideas to the 4e version of sterile trimmed down perfectly senisble version.  In my mind the confusing version just seems like a more realistic lived in setting.

I dont really understand the argument of Liberal sensibilities though.  Unless you mean stuff like the push to get the monstrous races moved towards the "just misunderstood not really the bad guys you thought" races.  Certainly the big two Salvatore and Greenwood did not seem very liberal, too many evil POCs in Salvatore and too much sexy times in Greenwood for the liberal crowd.

Quote from: Shasarak;1079125SHARK you have some good points there, certainly endless "Times of Trouble" just because TSR/WotC want to change the rules again was annoying.  In many ways I think the current 5e tactic of just not giving a shit how everything fits together is probably worse though it is just the final nail for me after the 4e version jumping the figurative SHARK so to speak.

My first experience with Gods in DnD was via the Deities and Demi-Gods book which listed the stats of the Gods and as we all know, if it has stats then it can be killed.  So it seemed only natural for that to then flow through to the Forgotten Realms where yes in fact Gods can be killed and powerful mortals (PCs?) can take their place.  Its not even a unique idea in DnD, the Gold box Immortal set allowed your character to become a Mystara "God".  To be honest the thought of a God in DnD that is the equivalent of a "Beard in the Sky" like Ao, omniscient and omnipotent does seem ridiculous and on the other hand it was just the one set of novels.

I can see how things look like a cascade of poorly thought out ideas.  I would say the reason is probably just because there were a large number of people implementing contradictory and poorly thought out ideas.  In some ways I prefer the convoluted mish mash of ideas to the 4e version of sterile trimmed down perfectly senisble version.  In my mind the confusing version just seems like a more realistic lived in setting.

I dont really understand the argument of Liberal sensibilities though.  Unless you mean stuff like the push to get the monstrous races moved towards the "just misunderstood not really the bad guys you thought" races.  Certainly the big two Salvatore and Greenwood did not seem very liberal, too many evil POCs in Salvatore and too much sexy times in Greenwood for the liberal crowd.

Greetings!

Thank you, Shasarak! Indeed, through the mythology, and the original Deities and Demi-gods, with the stats, there was an implication of player characters fighting gods and killing them. Honestly, I think that has its roots a little bit in mythology, but draws moreso from powerful fantasy literature of the time--see Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone, Karl Edward Wagoner's Kane, and Howard's Conan the Barbarian--all of which embraced various short stories where the heroes battled against and defeated ancient, monstrous gods.

So, there is some mythological and literary precedent. However, while exciting and fine in a novel--in a game, such feats actually tend to introduce far more problematic elements than they are worth, so to speak. I tend to think simply mystifying the deities and making them impossible to fight directly is a far more sensible approach, and has many enormous and salient strengths for the believability and sustainability of the campaign, and in the bargain, the campaign world isn't "losing" anything.

You hit the 4E Abomination right on the head. As I mentioned, I use the World of Thandor. However, I too, was enraged and just disgusted with what WOTC did to FR during 4E. Absolute abomination. you know? I read whole lists of people running FR that proclaimed at the time, "Fuck WOTC! I'm just ignoring everything they do in FR in 4E. I have all the 3E FR stuff, which was beautiful, so fuck 'em." The rage by FR fans was certainly palpable. I also understand your point about prefering a convoluted mess, as opposed to whatever 4E was doing. I can see how, yeah, that it is ok to be wild and messy. More realistic and believable. Similar to how I handle cosmology in World of Thandor. I, however, don't write a bunch of stuff down, so there is no canon to contradict itself, or become stupid. I intentionally leave it blank, unspoken, or just mysterious and supposed and theoretical by whatever religious authorities. As Saint Paul says in the Scriptures, "Yea, for now we see as through a glass darkly." I always like that, because even there, Saint Paul discusses how God's mind is not *ours*, that human beings are *created creatures* and because we are mortal, our mortal minds cannot possibly comprehend the divine mind of God. There are mysteries and things in the world that we cannot possibly understand, and that is ok. Having faith in God, even when we do not comprehend everything, is what is really important. A divine God is under no obligation to explain Himself to us, the creation. God doesn't need to come running to us, and cater to us by explaining everything to our satisfaction. Anyhow, theology and philosophy aside, I think that is some meaningful philosophy that lends a great deal of realism to whatever cosmology we are building in a game world. I think to insist that it must be otherwise, generally tends to cheapen and "mortalize" the divine, and thereupon you gradually travel down the road where philosophically, either one god, or pantheons of many gods, cease to embrace a great sense of divine awe and majesty, and instead take upon themselves the shabby robes of mortal pettiness, corruption, and having a sense of being more mortal, rather than *DIVINE*the gods to be divine.

I like the gods to be *divine*--not merely powerful mortals with more makeup on.

As to Liberal sensibilities, yeah, the whole monsters are misunderstood thing, but also a liberalism creeping into every aspect of the game. There are many liberal ideas in FR cosmology, and the whole game, in the sense that there is a more liberalized viewpoint expressed, as opposed to a viewpoint more informed by a traditional, conservative religious viewpoint. Then, there's the whole traditional conservative approaches to the game world, like player characters, races, and so on, that held sway for decades, but now are being thrown out and discarded by the SJW's. It's a gradual influence, lots of little things, that gradually add up over time to *colour* the game campaign differently.

Like supposed "paladins" being able to be whatever alignment the player wants them to be.

That's just SJW heresy, my friend! HERESY!!!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1079100If one was a real fan of using FR as a campaign world, you would be better served by keeping the world, and scrubbing the FR cosmology entirely, and installing your own.

For my 4e FR game I just used the 4e cosmology, which is a lot better than the 2e FR garbage - and sticking with that 4e version for my current 5e FR game.

Quote from: S'mon;1079138For my 4e FR game I just used the 4e cosmology, which is a lot better than the 2e FR garbage - and sticking with that 4e version for my current 5e FR game.

Greetings!

Well, my friend, what was aweful about 2E FR? I'm not up on the precise framework of what they did in 4E--but from what I saw that WOTC did to the FR world, the North or whatever being scrubbed, whole cities and regions gone, apparently it was a mess. Did you like the "Spell Plague" thing, S'mon? I'm not familiar with 4E, but the changes I saw to the campaign there as a whole were just terrible! LOL. Really, though. What did you like--or since you still use the 4E cosmology--what do you like about it, S'mon? Explain how it is an improvement over the 3E version of FR, which I am more familiar with.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK