Very much agree with what's been said by a lot of people on here: it's different strokes for different folks.

I do dislike a lot of CR-esque shows, if only because I think the worldbuilding is very shallow and unimaginative, and the jokes absolutely cringeworthy. BUT if other people get value out of it, and enjoy it, that's a great thing! If they have unrealistic expectations for the first few sessions of D&D that isn't great, but those expectations are bound to change once they start playing the game themselves, and at least they're giving it a go and seeing if its really for them!

Also, from personal experience, I've had a few new players who got into DnD via CR, adventure zone, etc. - and they all ended up enjoying it and being great players, even though the way I run adventures is super different from what they'd been used to.

So apparently #Polygon thinks Critical Role's massive crowdfunding success is kickstarting some interesting conversations such as these:

Quote from: AerokiiTowards the profit angle of this, I find it odd that they're treating this Kickstarter as if it belongs in the "Tabletop RPG" space just because it's based off of a Tabletop RPG game. People are backing to see media they consume turned into a different form of media, and I'm having a hard time believing that if this Kickstarter didn't exist, those people would instead be spending money on indie tabletop rpgs instead...

DISCLAIMER: I don't know anything a bout Critical Role beyond the fact it's a bunch of professional VOs and hwatnot playing DnD for an audience, so if that caused me to miss some nuance I apologize.

This has nothing to do with gaming! Who knew someone posting on #GamerGhazi with the title 'Social Justice Paladin' would ever agree with ThePundit.

Quote from: @AbstruseIf you're curious why otherwise nice and well-meaning game designers are a little grumpy over the Critical Role Kickstarter, I remind you that they made almost 10% of the gross sales for the ENTIRE RPG INDUSTRY in a year in just a day built off their work and they get none of it.

This doesn't mean that the designers hate Critical Role, the people behind it, or their fans. They're just upset some streamers make more money off RPGs than the people who actually make the games, and fans don't support the designers the same way they do streamers.

Because @Polygon went and quoted me without asking my permission or even warning me, let me clarify this:

No game designers I know of are angry at Critical Role or anyone involved. They're frustrated at the situation and state of the industry.

It's not fair they make all this money for being popular while the designers of the games they play don't. Also you need to ask permission or give a warning when embedding a #Tweet.

Quote from: @GoldenLassoGirlI want to talk for a moment about #criticalrole - It is incomprehensible that they have not diversified their cast. There is no excuse to not include POC in your APs, especially in Los Angeles. I speak from experience. I did it with my APs and we stream minutes from CR.

As they continue to succeed and solidify(even more) their place as the ambassadors of #Ttrpg they are accepting the responsibility that comes with that. They aren't a home game anymore.

Honestly, "we're friends, it's not personal" is a form of gatekeeping. I faced it MANY times as a woman before I found my current group 10 years ago.

It's not always intentional gatekeeping, but considering the diversity of many gaming friend groups, it has the same effect.

Quote from: @wundergeekSome people say "they started out as friends", but once you get bigger than a certain size, and once you start doing shit for money, THAT CHANGES THINGS. They could have used their SIZEABLE platform to create and hold space for marginalized creators, and they didn't.

The reality is that THIS is what gatekeeping really looks like. It's not "I refuse to work with brown people". It's "I only want to work with my friends.... who just happen to all be white".

Extending your whites-only friend bubble into your business decisions IS GATEKEEPING.

Fellow whites - I'm not invested in Critical Role in any way - I don't follow them, and I don't follow their stuff. But boy am I tired of people using "but they're all friends" to justify this kind of white nonsense. Because "but all my friends are white" IS WHITE NONSENSE.

So having friends is a form of racist gatekeeping now, and once you're successful enough you should ditch everyone you trust and have chemistry with in order to start working with diverse strangers. The fact they think working relationships are this arbitrary, superficial, and interchangeable explains so much, and their demands are downright Orwellian: Literally no loyalty other than to the state.

Quote from: @wundergeekI have thoughts on the Critical Role stuff, from someone who has been complaining about this kind of shit for a lonnnngggg time.

So. On diversity stretch goals, the insidiousness of gatekeeping, and why lack of diversity is a marketing problem in 2019.

First, as a marginalized publisher, let me just say I'm REAL FUCKING TIRED of diversity only being bolted on as an after-thought through stretch goals. I used to do diversity-hire stretch goals. Now I don't.

I don't want to help you check the diversity boxes you should have thought about BEFORE planning your campaign. And I hate feeling like the "only" worth I bring to the table is being marginalized.

So there's that. BUT ALSO.

I have been out here for YEARS saying that people need to start building diversity into their Kickstarter teams from the beginning, not as an afterthought, and I'm not the only one!

How is the backlash against the startlingly not-diverse team in any way a surprise in 2019?

Because even if you aren't moved by the desire to do better in terms of marginalized representation, you need to consider that in 2019 this is becoming a serious branding issue that you need to get out in front of.

BTW, there aren't any diversity stretch goals in the #CriticalRole Kickstarter.

So you can just smell the resentment and entitlement coming off these 'conversations' regarding the success of #CriticalRole, and complete lack of self-awareness about why their own brands are not as successful. And for all the problems with The Pundit, I still have to give them props for having enough character to actually allow his actions to be criticized on his own forum. If I even responded to any of these folks I'd be blocked instantly.

Bonus round: The #Polygon article also mentions how 'actual play' won the Diana Jones Award (so much for racism being the deciding factor), and how Kingdom Death: Monster 1.5 (you know, the misogynistic one with tits in all the wrong places) made money faster than any other #Kickstarter in history, including Critical Role (which is currently in 3rd place). Oh the humanity.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1078830So having friends is a form of racist gatekeeping now, and once you're successful enough you should ditch everyone you trust and have chemistry with in order to start working with diverse strangers. The fact they think working relationships are this arbitrary, superficial, and interchangeable explains so much, and their demands are downright Orwellian: Literally no loyalty other than to the state.

The problem is that you can not just add one POC to the game because anyone would tell you that having one POC friend does not mean you are not racist.

And also no one wants to be the token POC.

Quote from: Shasarak;1078834The problem is that you can not just add one POC to the game because anyone would tell you that having one POC friend does not mean you are not racist.

And also no one wants to be the token POC.

What gets me is that they think it's so damn easy to attract a POC, female or gay gamer to a tabletop session. My first gaming group was all white stereotypical social maladjusted geeks. Second group was much more normal and I joined not created the group like the first one. The DM had an open invitation to all and we had one female gamer who ended up leaving because she got married and wanted to focus on her family life. Two POC one who left to focus on work the other left because he played with a truly disruptive style at the table and refused to commit to playing regularly. We sent out the ad for more players guess what all male and all straight and white. THe Horror!

Quote from: sureshot;1078850What gets me is that they think it's so damn easy to attract a POC, female or gay gamer to a tabletop session.

Well it's not hard in London... I suspect it's pretty easy in Seattle (if you count east-Asian as POC), too. Although right now my only POC (terrible acronym) is a half-Chinese friend, which I'm pretty sure barely counts. Plenty of female players. Not sure if I have any gay players right now but they're certainly common around here. Gay men seem somewhat over represented, but lesbians seem hugely over represented among D&D players. There's a pretty strong positive correlation IME between lesbianism or bisexual players and female players who like killing things and taking their stuff.

Quote from: S'mon;1078861Well it's not hard in London... I suspect it's pretty easy in Seattle (if you count east-Asian as POC), too. Although right now my only POC (terrible acronym) is a half-Chinese friend, which I'm pretty sure barely counts. Plenty of female players. Not sure if I have any gay players right now but they're certainly common around here. Gay men seem somewhat over represented, but lesbians seem hugely over represented among D&D players. There's a pretty strong positive correlation IME between lesbianism or bisexual players and female players who like killing things and taking their stuff.

Obviously it can be easier or harder depending on the area one is living in. But unless at least 50 to 75% of the table is POC and other than straight, white and male your not trying hard enough. Sorry but unless I'm getting paid and my full time job is looking for POC to play D&D the only effort I'm putting towards that goal is an online ad on LGS websites with a paper ad as well and word of mouth.

Er...Taliesin is bi. Does that not count anymore?

FWIW, I glimpsed at the latest episode and only the two girls and the big guy seem to be super-cheery. Personally, I like Liam/Caleb best: he seems to play as a thinking man. But for me the success of CR is tied to the fact that you have 7 individuals here of which I don't dislike a single one. They're all likeable in one form or another.

I still can't sit through entire episodes though.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1078830So having friends is a form of racist gatekeeping now, and once you're successful enough you should ditch everyone you trust and have chemistry with in order to start working with diverse strangers. The fact they think working relationships are this arbitrary, superficial, and interchangeable explains so much, and their demands are downright Orwellian: Literally no loyalty other than to the state.

Reading that thread I'm actually encouraged by the pushback from fans against the diversity zealots. This moral panic can't last forever. The zealots are eventually going to exasperate enough people, especially their 'allies' who have enabled their bullying, that there will be a backlash. This kind of pearl-clutching over the makeup of a popular enterprise with a rabid fanbase is just another push towards that tipping point.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1078830It's not fair they make all this money for being popular while the designers of the games they play don't. Also you need to ask permission or give a warning when embedding a #Tweet.

For some reason I always read that guys handle as @Obtuse

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1078830So having friends is a form of racist gatekeeping now, and once you're successful enough you should ditch everyone you trust and have chemistry with in order to start working with diverse strangers. The fact they think working relationships are this arbitrary, superficial, and interchangeable explains so much, and their demands are downright Orwellian: Literally no loyalty other than to the state.

LOL.

"No loyalty except to the state" is exactly why SJWism = Stalinism.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1078830BTW, there aren't any diversity stretch goals in the #CriticalRole Kickstarter.

WTF is a "diversity stretch goal"?

Its sounds like creepy tokenism. Give us $10k and we'll have an Eskimo rub their junk on every book!

Quote from: Shasarak;1078834The problem is that you can not just add one POC to the game because anyone would tell you that having one POC friend does not mean you are not racist.

According to SJWs, being white is the unforgivable sin.

Fortunately, most real people (of all colors) don't live by the SJW playbook.

The only player anyone should add to their gaming group are is a fun new gamer, regardless of their "DNA identity".

And of course, FUCK OFF is always the best answer to anything SJWs say.

Quote from: Mistwell;1078897Er...Taliesin is bi. Does that not count anymore?

He's a white male, so no.  He could have autism, aspergers, Huntington's disease, be a blind quadriplegic and Bi, Gay and Lesbian all at the same time.  He's Literally Hitler to them.

The only white men currently that wouldn't get put against the wall are Transgender.

Of course the only real reason wunderkind is whining is because no one has ever wanted to buy anything she's ever written, outside her immediate family and friends who have to.

Quote from: Mistwell;1078897Er...Taliesin is bi. Does that not count anymore?

Nope. And if it is the same Taliesin I knew many a year ago, Then people should be a little careful with handing him money or anything he is associated with.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out that inclusivity is hard.  If you don't try to make it happen, it won't happen.  

The 'state' in our pluralistic democratic society is composed of representatives some of whom are more 'representative' than others.  We believe that putting different people with different regional needs together to suss out the common good is the best way to make sure that everyone gets what they need.  Put another way, our system is designed to ensure that minorities (like Iowans) are not completely ignored by majorities (like Coastal Areas.  For this system to keep working, other minorities need a voice and representation.  

Our Democratic system has checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of the majority.  Minority voices pointing out that there isn't always room at the table isn't a problem.  That's the system working as intended.  And sure, if you're in the majority it can feel like it's unfair that you're constantly scooching, especially when you don't have enough for yourself, but I promise you, most of the room is at the head of the table with the billionaires, and if they let you scoot over there, we'd all have enough space.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1078995There's nothing wrong with pointing out that inclusivity is hard.  If you don't try to make it happen, it won't happen.  

With the exception of some close minded gamers in the hobby most try and that is all we need to do. This is a hobby to us not a job. Once my hobby becomes work I expect to be paid for my services. Or I stop practicing the hobby. It is all too easy to say "TRY!" when one does try and nothing comes of it. We gamers can't force non-straight POC or women to come into the hobby. Sure if you live in a big city they are easier to find and not guaranteed. Even then if it not more than one we get accused of tokenism along the lines of " sure your not racist about POC all you have is one Indian/gay/women at the gaming ".

Speaking for myself I don't care about a person race, gender or sexual identity as long as they are hired for their knowledge, skill, experience and merit. Not to fill some artificial diversity and inclusivity  quota and they know nothing at the job or even worse completely incompetent. If I have a choice of hiring all straight white people even if they are all males and they know what they are doing those are the people I hire. As a business owner if I had one I'm not losing money for diversity or inclusivity or care about the opinion of the SJW mob. Same thing if I have to chose two people to fix the roof of my mom house and one sells himself on the skills of his or her employees vs the other saying I should hire them for being diverse and inclusive. I will always go with the first as more often not the second hires just about anybody and everybody just on their race or gender and not on the skills and experience.