Quote from: estar;1078617No you don't pitch complexity, instead you pitch why are you doing it.
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So like I said, it about knowing what you want and doing it well. With the caveat that you present in a way that is straightforward and interesting to learn. One way to do both is making sure you add the minimum to make what you want happen. As well as clear writing, good presentation, well designed rules, well play tested rules and so forth and so on.
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Complexity will not sell, but complexity that used when needed to make an RPG that is fun and interesting will sell.

Sure, I can agree to that. So why is GURPS worth it? Why can't we replace all Ads/Disads and their unique rules with Aspects and uniform rules? Why can't we remove all modifiers and replace them with Advantage a la D&D? And this isn't GURPS-specific either. It concerns as well complex games like Shadowrun (the ruletext of which, btw, is not clearly organized; it's a PITA to read). FFGs 40K RPGs were also somewhat complex (but with generally very well organized texts). Do these types of games do enough to convey the value of their complexity?

Quote from: Jaeger;1078622Because you can get the same effect at the table with less complex rules systems.

And is exactly the notion that SJG and others need to challenge. Without a succcessful challenge, they have no value proposition.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078622And the Hobby is not going back.

I remember when it looked like the hobby would forever revolve around getting loot and XPs only. So I take that with a huge grain of salt, tbqh.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078622And both are much lighter systems than GURPS or HERO - that cannot be discounted,

Presentation is important - but presentation can only do so much like sureshot points out:

That argument could have been trotted out around 2000 or so. But at this point the trend is permanent.

What permanent is the impact of digital technology and open content. Which has led to more diversity in all areas. Because every niche can be supported effectively in the time one has for a hobby if there is material legal to use and profit from.

It doesn't matter what is the larger trend is. Except for when you have a established company that has to met overhead, then that becomes a consideration. There one has to weigh the options and go with the ones that allow you to meet that overhead and profit. The question in my mind, is whether a solution can be found for GURPS. Where SJ Games is happy and allows the GURPS hobbyists to support their niche with the time they have for a hobby.

Before anybody scoffs I have a bit of experience with systems that were dead and their hobbyists who brought them back to life.

Quote from: DocJones;1078625If large numbers of new players are coming into the hobby via simple systems, then perhaps the future trend will be towards more complex systems as those players might be wanting more and more detail.

People mostly come into the hobby via D&D.

Which is already fairly crunchy/complex at high levels.

I can see Players looking for different types of complexity, for their specific genre emulation fix.

But I don't see them as going up in complexity. Especially if the game isn't D&D.

Quote from: estar;1078634What permanent is the impact of digital technology and open content. Which has led to more diversity in all areas. Because every niche can be supported effectively in the time one has for a hobby if there is material legal to use and profit from.

No one is saying that a niche cannot be supported. Rolemaster is still around. I'm sure it has fans.

But as far as the larger hobby is concerned, its days of relevance are long past.

Quote from: estar;1078634It doesn't matter what is the larger trend is. Except for when you have a established company that has to met overhead, then that becomes a consideration. There one has to weigh the options and go with the ones that allow you to meet that overhead and profit...

Which is SJG's case.  I and others don't think that they have taken the larger trend of reduced complexity in game design into consideration.

Quote from: estar;1078634Before anybody scoffs I have a bit of experience with systems that were dead and their hobbyists who brought them back to life.

OSR? Reviving less complex version(s) of the most popular RPG in the world?

Yeah still niche, but OSR games occupy a grand canyon equivalent of niche compared to the shallow grotto that GURPS and HERO find themselves in.

And they gained enough awareness in the RPG hobby as a whole that OSR philosophy influenced 5e.

The history of the Warhammer 40000 games is a long, complex mess, that begins with GW's in house Black Library publishing Dark Heresy passing it off to Green Ronin and then to FFG.  The complexity was higher than most people wanted but there was a legacy issue.  It was a case of the setting's popularity and the long pent up demand for an rpg making the existing system acceptable.

D&D 5e isn't much simpler than GURPS, especially when you start adding in all the options at higher levels.  I'm not a huge fan of the Advantage / Disadvantage mechanic anyhow.  D&D 5e's Resistance mechanism involves (gasp! horror!) division!

This is why I always say GURPS needs a killer ap.  The system is great but systems aren't the main selling point for roleplaying games.

Quote from: Jaeger;1078635People mostly come into the hobby via D&D.

Which is already fairly crunchy/complex at high levels.

This is part of the genius of the level system, especially if combined with random character generation. It's simple to start, and as the character becomes more experienced, so does the player, who can now handle the increased complexity and in-game challenges.

It has its flaws, of course. But escalating complexity has proven to be more popular than complexity right from the start.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1078646This is part of the genius of the level system, especially if combined with random character generation. It's simple to start, and as the character becomes more experienced, so does the player, who can now handle the increased complexity and in-game challenges.

It has its flaws, of course. But escalating complexity has proven to be more popular than complexity right from the start.

Has this been shown by anything other than D&D? Because it's certainly true that D&D is more popular than other games, but there are a lot of reasons for that. Outside of D&D, I don't clearly see this as a trend. GURPS, Hero, BRP / Call of Cthulhu, FATE, and many other systems are all second-tier, and they don't have escalating complexity.

It's certainly a reasonable choice - but I don't think that the point about popularity is proven.

Is it possible that it doesn't matter what another publisher does, how simple or complex, or anything that the hobby boom is never going to really move beyond D&D?

The MMO Boom never took place after WoW. Prior to WoW, there were dozens of MMOs in development, after WoW dozens more went into develop, very few came out. We had a Conan game, sci-fi, more fantasy, even a Sims MMORPG, and they all failed. The MMO genre is now a niche within a niche. Is it possible that it doesn't matter what these publishers do that they will never capture more sales? I think that is the most likely outcome. The current generation that is making up the new D&D players are the same people that made WoW boom. Very few will play anything else and when they stop playing D&D they will not play any other RPG.

So here is the thing: Outsideo of D&D no RPG makes any significant revenue. GURPS is more successful than a lot of rules lite or simple games. I think a lot of folks don't see it because the GURPS community is on the SJ Games forums.'

I just checked out the RPG.net forum users and they had 245 registered users brokering the forum at 10:04 PM EST.  The GURPS forum at 178. I don't see away to tell me how many are on theRPGSite right now.  The RPG Pub had 10. Let's say there are 5x the users here than RPG Pub, that's 50 here. The point is that GURPS has an active userbase but it is in its own community. Most GURPS product is sold through Warehouse23. Part of the reasons GURPS is so invisible is that SJGames did such a great job adapting to technology in the late 90's and early 2000's that they built their own ecosystem.

We have people here thinking like GURPS isn't successful. Tens of thousands of people play it. It is going to be having its 7th reprinting of the rulebooks this year. It launched in 2004. We have had 3 editions of D&D in that time. GURPS is successful enough to have had a long running magazine, a full time editor, multiple freelancers that make real money writing GURPS content, a small publisher that has its business built around releasing Powered by GURPS material (which will branch out to TFT this year), there is a very successful podcast that is run by GURPS fans (Happy Jacks).  From George RR Martin, Steven Erikson, and many other famous fantasy novelists, to the guy from Silicion Valley, there is even a big "celebrity" wing of GURPS fans.

Is it possible and just here me out here....that we have people in a bubble and we don't really see what is popular outside of our bubbles? This forum is a heavily OSR site. RPGPub seems to way more heavily into BRP/Mythras. The RPG.net is a big site for more "story" game type games. D&D being more than 90% of the market dominates everywhere.

Bottom line: I don't think there is a market that GURPS can sell to and still be GURPS. Maybe having a printing of GURPS lite and a GURPS Continuing Lite would help. I think DFRPG is a fabulous entry point to GURPS. I don't think SJ Games should chase a market that isn't really there.

The hobby doersn't really move RPGs from anybody not named WoTC at physical retail anymore. Gone are the days when we would see entire walls and stores dedicated to RPGs like we did in the 80's and the 90's.

If you post on the GURPS forums what GURPS heads want is hard even to pin down. I want a Third Party Publishing program like what Savage Worlds and others are doing. I'm an engineer and GURPS is my cup of tea. I think maybe we should stop (and I'm very guilty of this) trying to pretend it is 1995 again and just try our best to make sure we support the publishers we like, share what we like, and try to introduce people to the games we like. RPG Publishers should try to make products that their audience wants and try to grow little by little. There is no sliver bullet to be had because there is no werewolf to kill.

D&D is big now. When the audience that made D&D 5E successful stop playing they aren't playing anything else. We aren't in another 80's boom. If D&D is cheese pizza maybe GURPS shouldn't try to compete with that. Maybe GURPS can be fine French cuisine. It's not a big as pizza but it is still tasty.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669We have people here thinking like GURPS isn't successful. Tens of thousands of people play it. It is going to be having its 7th reprinting of the rulebooks this year. It launched in 2004. We have had 3 editions of D&D in that time. GURPS is successful enough to have had a long running magazine, a full time editor, multiple freelancers that make real money writing GURPS content, a small publisher that has its business built around releasing Powered by GURPS material (which will branch out to TFT this year), there is a very successful podcast that is run by GURPS fans (Happy Jacks).  From George RR Martin, Steven Erikson, and many other famous fantasy novelists, to the guy from Silicion Valley, there is even a big "celebrity" wing of GURPS fans.

When the SJGames the company that created Gurps is reducing their releases for Gurps as their last major releases for it did not sell well. So that they can focus on more profitable products for the company than to me at least Gurps is not selling well. It's all well to say people are playing RPG XYZ. If the numbers are enough for it to be profitable for their parent company it's not a good sign. I'm sure gamers play Hero System and Rifts and one company is on life support and the other which may surprise gamers here and elsewhere used to be in the top ten. Both are surviving and not thriving in the rpg industry. Now if both Gurps and Hero System were profitable and if SJGames was not reducing the amount of support Gurps is getting then it's another thing.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669Is it possible and just here me out here....that we have people in a bubble and we don't really see what is popular outside of our bubbles? This forum is a heavily OSR site. RPGPub seems to way more heavily into BRP/Mythras. The RPG.net is a big site for more "story" game type games. D&D being more than 90% of the market dominates everywhere.

If SJGames and Hero Games rpg lines were profitable. With both seeing major release and SJGames not cutting support for Gurps and Hero Games not on life support than tell us we are talking out of our asses. You want to ignore what is happening because I can only assume that your unhappy with the state of Gurps. What more do you need when SJGames is cutting back support for Gurps because it is not profitable. A well run company does not cut back support on a profitable rpg line if it popular. Push the narrative of us being ignorant all you want at this point I think you don't want to accept that Gurps is no longer popular.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669Bottom line: I don't think there is a market that GURPS can sell to and still be GURPS. Maybe having a printing of GURPS lite and a GURPS Continuing Lite would help. I think DFRPG is a fabulous entry point to GURPS. I don't think SJ Games should chase a market that isn't really there.

Bottom Line: your just like too many Gurps  and Hero System fans I see on forums. Nothing can be changed because it will not be Gurps/Hero System anymore. Keep the status quo even if it kills Gurps/Hero System. No solutions to fix the problem besides 3pp. Then a few years down the line complain that no one is playing Gurps and it's not popular. While hoping the hobby and those who play in it suddenly see the error of their ways and demand a return to more complexity and crunchiness. I don't think that will happen if ever. I doubt we will see a return to computers with a fraction of the processing power that take up an entire room make a return. While I like how a model T looks I don't think car manufacturers or even consumers want to see them make a major comeback. Not without major  upgrades and changes that fix the flaws and make it easier to use than previous editions.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669The hobby doersn't really move RPGs from anybody not named WoTC at physical retail anymore. Gone are the days when we would see entire walls and stores dedicated to RPGs like we did in the 80's and the 90's.

We not see entire walls they have changed and carry more board games, novels, comics and other products to appeal to a more wider audience. More importantly they carry popular rpgs and similar items that sell. Online sales have taken a big chuck of sales. Where I live we have four stores that carry rpgs yet not just rpgs and seem to be doing well.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669If you post on the GURPS forums what GURPS heads want is hard even to pin down. I want a Third Party Publishing program like what Savage Worlds and others are doing. I'm an engineer and GURPS is my cup of tea. I think maybe we should stop (and I'm very guilty of this) trying to pretend it is 1995 again and just try our best to make sure we support the publishers we like, share what we like, and try to introduce people to the games we like. RPG Publishers should try to make products that their audience wants and try to grow little by little. There is no sliver bullet to be had because there is no werewolf to kill.

Your the only one I can see among others here that is trying to do more than just simply push no changes and maintain the status quo. Opening it to 3PP is a good start I just don't think it is enough. I stopped going into Gurps threads or the SJGames forum because it's all about no changes to the current rules and maintaining the status quo even if it kills the Gurps IP. I'm done dealing with fellow gamers who lament the lack of popularity for Gurps while demanding nothing be changed to save it. As much as I want to support Gurps and Hero Games they simply refuse to offer me what I want in a generic rpg and I have moved on less complex and crunchy systems. Do I want to see Gurps or the Hero system die off no yet I cannot and will not justify spending money an rpg company that does not offer me what I want or on a rpg I no longer want to run or play.

 

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669D&D is big now. When the audience that made D&D 5E successful stop playing they aren't playing anything else. We aren't in another 80's boom. If D&D is cheese pizza maybe GURPS shouldn't try to compete with that. Maybe GURPS can be fine French cuisine. It's not a big as pizza but it is still tasty.

I think your vastly underestimating how popular D&D is. Stranger Things has two seasons with a third confirmed. Granted the version of D&D played is 1E it is still brand exposure for D&D. With the ability to buy the 1E PDFs cheap through Wotc Dungeon Master Guild. More importantly WOTC shows they are willing to fix the flaws of their older rpg engine even if it means alienating older fans. Granted 5E was a somehwat of a gamble and it payed off. As for your French Cuisine analogy the food may be more higher class than Pizza it also needs to sometimes change and be served differently. Pizza may taste the same it's also cheaper and easier to get in some places than French Cuisine.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669Is it possible that it doesn't matter what another publisher does, how simple or complex, or anything that the hobby boom is never going to really move beyond D&D?

Well, yes, especially if there is never a pushback from other publishers. D&D is a RPG like any other - it has its strength and weaknesses; it specializes in certain aspects of role-playing while neglecting others. Part of the appeal of Knights of the Black Lily is just that: providing an experience that D&D does not do - which then becomes the justification for some amount of complexity. If you want at least SOME players to move beyond D&D, have something different on offer. How many, if any, will de facto change is a different question.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669Is it possible that it doesn't matter what these publishers do that they will never capture more sales? I think that is the most likely outcome. The current generation that is making up the new D&D players are the same people that made WoW boom. Very few will play anything else and when they stop playing D&D they will not play any other RPG.

It's only right that you call them D&D players. Because role-players they are not. It's one thing to have tried various RPGs and have come to the conclusion that D&D is your thing. That's an informed choice. But never even considering to try other RPGs raises a lot of questions about such people and what brings them to D&D to begin with. It's a bit insulting, actually. And not without irony when the very same people talk about being inclusive, LOL.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078669D&D is big now. When the audience that made D&D 5E successful stop playing they aren't playing anything else. We aren't in another 80's boom. If D&D is cheese pizza maybe GURPS shouldn't try to compete with that. Maybe GURPS can be fine French cuisine. It's not a big as pizza but it is still tasty.

That would work if SJG could charge the prices of French cuisine. But it can't, in part due to pirated PDFs. No, either you have a value proposition, then you take a stand for it or you don't think you do, then you adapt. Well, or you just don't care and let things roll on.

So, I  placed an order with SJG for about $400, mostly GURPS books.  I figured out why the shipping was so high, and fixed it.  They had my shipping address in Africa for some reason.  As usual I'm an idiot.  $120 is still a lot for shipping but that's why there are distributors.  Battle Front, Mantic, and Warlord do free shipping, I order direct from all of them.  Not as often as I'd like but high minimum orders have that effect.  That's not a dig at SJG they probably have fewer direct retailer sales due to being in distribution and the shipping companies also look at volume when setting prices.

And yes, I'll be backing this kickstarter at the retail level.  It's a bit of a gamble, the store was VERY tenuous last year and I still doubt my wisdom in going forward with it as orders are money out of pocket right now.  But the reality is that if I can't or won't get GURPS in it probably shouldn't be the thing I run most at my store.

Where is the evidence that rules light is the popular and the right move for SJ Games to make? Nobody knows how many copies of the books, that SJ Games releases every month for GURPS, actually sells. Is there any evidence that Fate is more popular than GURPS? (Insert your own lite system in place of Fate)

D&D 5E is extremely popular. No other RPG is. I am willing to bet GURPS sells better than most "rules lite" systems and I bet there is a lot more crossover if the same people buying a lot of rules lite systems.

I think a big reason for the popularity of Savage Worlds is the 3PP agreement that makes it easier for hobbyists to create product.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078711Where is the evidence that rules light is the popular and the right move for SJ Games to make?

Additional comments in addition to the point being made above.

1) The rules light slot at SJ Games is now taken up by The Fantasy Trip.

2) ANY single approach is a "magic bullet" based on a educated guess subject to the vagaries of taste. Because GURPS is a toolkit, because GURPS 4th edition was largely presented as a toolkit, it can support as a system and benefit from multiple efforts done at once. Preferably in a way that doesn't consume the time of Steve Jackson and his staff.

Which of those efforts would be "best" I don't know now, I know what I would try but what key is that there more one thing being done.

At this point your going out of your way to not post in good faith, being purposefully disingenuous, while moving the goal posts because you can't really defend or argue against Gurps and rules complex and crunchy games being less popular.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078711Where is the evidence that rules light is the popular and the right move for SJ Games to make? Nobody knows how many copies of the books, that SJ Games releases every month for GURPS, actually sells. Is there any evidence that Fate is more popular than GURPS? (Insert your own lite system in place of Fate)

Pinnacle is doing really well. Successfully Kickstarted Savage Rifts which is popular and selling well enough to warrant them doing another Kickstarter for more SR book. That they are not cutting back on Savage Worlds releases to focus on more profitable products. I do not spend my  entire free time on rpg sites and forums yet until the company posts that rpg line XYX is dead or not profitable I assume they are either doing well. Or doing poorly and hiding it from the fans. I prefer to remain optimistic. To be fair Evil Hat is doing something similar to SJGames and focusing on more profitable lines and also cutting back on releases. Though I think it's less to do with popularity and more to do with growing too quick to fast.

SJG 2017 report to shareholders 2017. I could not find one for 2018.  http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/ . At the bottom where it's written in the report " Everything else is a non-priority, something to do after the priorities are under control. ". As well as showing their top 40 profitable products with the core set for Gurps only making the list. Either your being deliberately obtuse, stubborn or just being a troll at this point. Let me guess the shareholder report is fake.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078711D&D 5E is extremely popular. No other RPG is. I am willing to bet GURPS sells better than most "rules lite" systems and I bet there is a lot more crossover if the same people buying a lot of rules lite systems.

Gurps is selling so well that with the exception of one Gurps product the rest of them do not even make the top 40 products per dollar volume for SJGames. Selling so well that it's not even a priority at this point with SJGames focusing on more profitable products and cutting back support for it. With their main competitor in even worse shape and on life support. I guess you will ignore that too as it goes against the " Gurps is profitable, you all don't know what you are talking about" narrative. As we all know anything and everything that goes against the narrative is to be ignored.

Quote from: Lurtch;1078711I think a big reason for the popularity of Savage Worlds is the 3PP agreement that makes it easier for hobbyists to create product.

Of course that is the only reason :rolleyes:. It has nothing to do that it can do much of what Gurps and Hero Systems does with less complexity and crunchiness. While also having a much smaller less expensive core book* . It's just the 3pp agreement because no other rpg company has one of those. It really is all about the narrative with you is it Lurth.

* Which unfortunately from what I read they will not be able to do in the newest version of Savage World. The managed to secure a great deal on the first print run of Savage Worlds explorer edition. It's not possible this time around and were honest about. The latest SW adventure edition will print version will be more expensive. Still the PDF is going for 10$ on Drivethrurpg so it's still cheaper than many other core PDfs on the market.

Quote from: sureshot;1078721you can't really defend or argue against Gurps and rules complex and crunchy games being less popular.

I can't speak for Lurtch, but for myself, I make my arguments in the context that it is feasible to support a given system well within the time and budget one has for a hobby. Unlike the economics of the 90s, GURPS survival ultimately does not depend on catering to desires of the majority of the hobby.

By supporting a system well I mean works are produced on a regular schedule with nice layout, nice art, that are readily available in print and digital form. It is NOT a requirement that it has to be a full color layouts, in hardbacks, found in the inventory of major distributors. If it possible by all means do it but it is not a requirement for GURPS successful revival.

As a consequence a GURPS revival can have GURPS remain GURPS with the core rulebook remaining as they are. Except now alongside there are more works that cater to a wider ranges of tastes and interests. Including those oriented at complete novices to the system and/or tabletop roleplaying.

What form that takes is something that can't be hashed out beforehand. Only through doing the work, releasing the result, paying attention to the feedback, and trying again will things (note the plural) emerge that connect GURPS back to a larger audience of hobbyists.