I'm still trying to decide whether to do a retailer level pledge.  With the Campaigns book being in short supply, I'm tempted to put the money towards a direct order.  I set up to do direct orders from SJG a couple years ago and then ran into some cash problems that took me a couple years to sort out.  The problem is that the shipping rates make selling the books at a profit impossible and the books people want the most are only available from Amazon print on demand.  I guess I should see what Amazon costs for shipping.  $300 on a $500 order is terrible.

Let me tell you something about .pdfs, the only reason buy them is to support a company and a game they love.  People have the illegal copies.  People get them quite easily.  Yes, it's theft, but people don't care.  I care, but I'm an idiot who wants to support a company that makes it hard for me to sell and promote their products.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078216I think the question is: why do I have to decide second for second what my character is going to do next? Isn't that too much micromanagement?

Not at all! In fact, it is quite refreshing compared to some other systems:

• There are full, standard, and move actions. You can make one full or (one standard and one move) per round, but you can swap a standard for a move.
• There are full, standard, move, and swift actions. As above, but you can swap moves for swifts.
• There are major actions and minor actions. You can make one major or one minor per round, or you can swap your major for two minor (meaning you get 3 minor per round.)
• There are attack actions and move actions. You can move and attack, but not attack and move.

All of those seem to me to require more micromanagement than Gurps, which is dead simple: Do one thing, and that's it. There are exceptions: There is a "move and attack" maneuver and a double attack maneuver (and I would not doubt there are more beyond the books I own.)

I do have complaints about Gurps, but one-second rounds are not one of them. It's probably the reloading times that turn a lot of people off.

Well, I should have added that I have played in GURPS - GURPS Fantasy, GURPS Cyberpunk and a GURPS Bab 5 campaign. For me, personally, the 1 second rounds were too much stop-and-go and the whole scene never flows like in systems with longer rounds - that's why 3 second rounds is kinda the minimum for me.

That said, I like GURPS (being a simulationist and all). I just find this aspect of the game rules not optimal.

[EDIT: On the other hand, I am glad that systems with 1 second rounds exist, so that one can explore this kind of play as well.]

Quote from: estar;1078173Just keep in mind folks, that SJ Games is one of the few surviving game companies from the early 80s that managed to keep a traditional corporate structure going with employees, salaries, offices, etc. Not many other companies outside of Paizo and Wizards can say this.

Thought FFG ran that way too?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1078180I hate GMing systems I'll never play. If my fellow players could never be convinced to run the game, then I am most certainly not going to run it.

GURPS has that problem. Also has the problem that my players just didn't like the per second combat.

Gurps is fairly popular locally for some reason and players occasionally ask me to DM it. But after seeing how the company keeps acting my urge to keeps getting knocked down.

Quote from: estar;1078240Once you done it once, you don't have to do it again and just works. And if you get an idea for a tweak it is pretty easy to implement.

Very much this. For the DM all the work is front loaded and likely not needed again after. Much akin to how character generation was in AD&D. The bulk of the work was frontloaded and you did not have to to that again for that character. Same with Gurps. You do all the tinkering and when you are done you have something that can run on its own pretty much. Depending on how much work you put into it at the start.

Quote from: Omega;1078334Thought FFG ran that way too?

Sure but they are not as old as SJ Games.

Quote from: Aglondir;1078303I do have complaints about Gurps, but one-second rounds are not one of them. It's probably the reloading times that turn a lot of people off.

I find the Speed / Range table is a bigger issue.  The large penalties at short ranges are off putting to people.  In GURPS aiming really matters.  It makes more sense when you look at play on a tactical grid but even then, with one yard hexes and 28mm figures the ranges look better but when you actually put in figures that are to scale they look really small.

I much preferred the first edition missile fire rules.  Fourth edition rolled back on third edition shooting where you still got a -4 for snap shots..

One thing I've always wished they'd done differently in fourth edition is the inclusion of the iconic characters and Infinite Worlds setting.  That could have been sixteen more pages of Templates, Spells, Animals, Vehicles.  There's even some advantages, disadvantages, enhancements, and limitations from Powers that could have been in the core book.  I know the ship has sailed on that but Infinite Worlds got a book early on and it would have been good for the core books to be more complete in these days when everything is out of print.

Quote from: Omega;1078334Thought FFG ran that way too?

Well, even if their business is traditional at heart, it has to follow the narrative...

GURPS is a great game and a LOT simpler than people paint it. Certainly simply than PF, for example.

However, still TOO COMPLEX for me, personally, for one main reason: the absurd number of skills and rules concerning them, which would be very easy to fix.

DF could ahve fizxed it, but they choose to keep things mostly as they are.

Huge missed opportunity IMO.

OTOH... a "fixed" version of GURPS would look a lot like improved D&D.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078328Well, I should have added that I have played in GURPS - GURPS Fantasy, GURPS Cyberpunk and a GURPS Bab 5 campaign. For me, personally, the 1 second rounds were too much stop-and-go and the whole scene never flows like in systems with longer rounds - that's why 3 second rounds is kinda the minimum for me.

Yep, the 1 second rounds made our games look more like a world of statues than any recognizable action scene we wanted to depict.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078328Well, I should have added that I have played in GURPS - GURPS Fantasy, GURPS Cyberpunk and a GURPS Bab 5 campaign. For me, personally, the 1 second rounds were too much stop-and-go and the whole scene never flows like in systems with longer rounds - that's why 3 second rounds is kinda the minimum for me.

That said, I like GURPS (being a simulationist and all). I just find this aspect of the game rules not optimal.

[EDIT: On the other hand, I am glad that systems with 1 second rounds exist, so that one can explore this kind of play as well.]

Three second rounds are great. I use them in my homebrew system, which has a simplified 3.x action economy:

• Full
• Move or Attack
• Attack or Move
• Move and Move

I know what you mean about Flow. Gurps can result in paralysis if the players "want to play chess" but that's true of any system. With players who are in tune with the 1-second concept, it can make for some very tense and exciting combats. I'm intrigued by it now, but a year from now I may have moved on to something else.  So many good games to try.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078352I find the Speed / Range table is a bigger issue.  The large penalties at short ranges are off putting to people.  In GURPS aiming really matters.  It makes more sense when you look at play on a tactical grid but even then, with one yard hexes and 28mm figures the ranges look better but when you actually put in figures that are to scale they look really small.

Yeah, one of our players had the same problem with Hero System. Players seem to have preconceived notions about range and reloading times. Maybe it's from movies, or maybe it's from 3.5/PF.

What I mean is this:
Let's say there's a melee fight between the party and a bunch of orcs that takes 20 seconds. That's 4 rounds in a 5-second system. After the fight is done, oftentimes a "movie of events" briefly plays before everyone's mind's eye, piecing together the action, so-to speak. I have found this much harder if I have to parse 20 1-second rounds. Maybe it's just me but for me it flows less smoothly. And that's not just afterwards. Movie of events sometimes happens in fights and you extend that movie at snail's pace each round with 1-second rounds.

Quote from: sureshot;1078176Not wrong with making a profit and as a company imo it should be the primary or at the very least secondary goal. I get why they went and focused on Munchkin. Yet at the same time they do the rpg equivalent of putting an rpg IP on cruise control and then wonder why the fans are not buying enough profitable they also bear the responsibility for the IP not being profitable. As well like Hero Games they also misjudged the extent that the fanbase desire crunch and complex rules. For years their was no real competition and the fans put up with the crunch and complexity. Along comes Savage worlds and Fate and it cut into their market share. I understand pleasing older fans yet Neither company  did nothing to try and reduce the complexity and crunchiness of their respective rpgs. Not rules light by any means yet somehow both companies seemed to think all it would take to get more new fans and older dissatisfied fans back to playing their rpgs was full colour and better production values. Which is always a nice touch yet it does nothing to really address the flaws of the rpg. With Fate and Savage worlds gamers were not having it and voted with their wallets.

About the complaint about Gurps and Hero system being too generic. I think that is missing the point completely. The point of a generic rpg is to allow one to play any rpg genre they want. Buying saying the Gurps core and then complaining that it's not a complete rpg like say the 5E core is on the buyer not say SJGames. Sorry that is the dumbest ever complaint about generic rpgs. "well I could have bought just the right tools for drilling and making holes in a door to attach it. I instead bought an all in one tool box and can't make heads or tails of it. It must be both the company who created the tool box and store who saold it to me fault that I can't figure it out". Do your fucking research as a buyer your expected a certain amount of responsibility and if you don't want to invest the work in building everything and anything in a rpg DON't buy a generic rpg.



Not defending Kickstarter yet a certain amount of how incompetently the project was handled is mainly Kevin Seimbeda fault. We are talking about a guy who released the first ever Rifts videogame on a platform almost no one really wanted. While ignoring any and all suggestions to the contrary. Made worse that he also signed a contract where said Rifts game cannot be translated to other platforms. Not a fan of Kickstarter nor of those who defend Kevin actions from the Kickstarter a certain amount of blame has to be placed on the owner as well.

I worked for Backbone Entertainment. You are making shit up. Kevin didn't put that in any contract. Nokia did because they fucking paid for the game!

I work in the video game industry. I know you don't know anything but here is a clue: If Palladium could license Rifts for a video game they would. Video games are very, very expensive, and the Rifts brand has no real meaning anymore. If Palladium wanted to sell the brand they would find people willing to buy it.