I have been working on a more hard core/ grittier/ whatever version of character creation more like older versions of D&D and DCC. I have already re-worked a starting profession chart and will have zero levels starting at 1d4 HD starting with 4 hp +/- Con. modifier. +1 proficiency to the single skill indicated on the chart. Add racial modifiers to stats.

I have spent the last couple of hours rolling 4d6 drop the lowest, straight down the line versus 3d6 down the line and replace the lowest with another 3d6 roll. I would have thought the 4d6 drop the lowest would produce consistently better stats. But I have rolled up a couple of meat shields that way as well. (one had modified 7 in both Dex. and Con. and thus 2hp.)

The stats swing big time within each method but I'm not seeing a clear cut advantage yet between those two methods.

I'm not a mathematician and I'm not sure it would matter if I was, sometimes you need to let "feel" have some weight in the conversation. But if you are a mathematician or have experience and want to share your thoughts.

I welcome your opinions.

For my new Primeval Thule campaign I use the following chargen method:

Roll best 3 of 5d6 in order STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
Replace any one stat with a 15
Apply racial mods.
Level 1 hit points = full CON score + max hd.

This creates very swords & sorcery suitable PCs!

For creating rolled PCs balanced against default array & point buy, I use:

Roll best 3 of 4d6 in order
Scrap if really bad.
Swap any two attributes.

I find with rolling the vital thing is not to use "roll then arrange", since that is effectively the same as variable point buy and creates min-maxed PCs with some just clearly vastly better than others.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1075289I have spent the last couple of hours rolling 4d6 drop the lowest, straight down the line versus 3d6 down the line and replace the lowest with another 3d6 roll. I would have thought the 4d6 drop the lowest would produce consistently better stats. But I have rolled up a couple of meat shields that way as well. (one had modified 7 in both Dex. and Con. and thus 2hp.)

The stats swing big time within each method but I'm not seeing a clear cut advantage yet between those two methods.

Well, that's the funky thing about dice probabilities. If you roll only a few characters there might not be any noticeable pattern. Probabilities are really designed to work for a pattern after thousands of rolls.

Both of your methods seem solid, but if you roll 4d6 and drop the low number you should be improving the odds for a high score for EACH STAT, but 3d6 straight where you re-roll the one low one will only affect a SINGLE STAT. Whether one method or the other seems better after a few dozen rolls would be hard to predict.

Rolling 3d6 should give an average roll of 10.5 for each statistic, but in only 6 rolls the number may be totally above or below that average. Tanking that character and re-rolling one low stat would help the one but not the others, but the advantage is that you are re-rolling the LOWEST one and not one at random. I haven't tried to work out the mathematics behind this but obviously the lower that roll the better the odds of improvement.

If I remember correctly, rolling 4 and keeping 3 gives an average of more like 12.25 for each statistic but again in only 6 rolls the number may be totally above or below that average.

The game is designed to allow players to have a decent chance of success is their main stat is 14+.  Which is including their racial bonuses.

Roll 4d6, reroll any 1's once, drop the lowest; and then never write down anything below a 10.

If the average person walking down the street is a 10; then my heroic adventurer has a minimum of 10, in every stat.

Quote from: Razor 007;1075352Roll 4d6, reroll any 1's once, drop the lowest; and then never write down anything below a 10.

If the average person walking down the street is a 10; then my heroic adventurer has a minimum of 10, in every stat.

As much as I agree with this, sometimes, having ONE low stat is both fun and amusing.  But it depends on your table.

4d6 drop the lowest, arranged to taste.
Can replace "primary stat" with a 16 but that value cannot be further modified by race/feats at character creation. (nod to Rolemaster)

Slightly better than average human and allows for avoiding one really bad roll. (At a slight cost)

It's not clear to me exactly what the final goals are.  Do you want some substantial stats so that these grittier zero level characters can survive?  "Adequate" stats so that the player feels better about the grit?  Less variation in stats?  Etc.

However, reading between the lines, I'll offer another alternative that may cover some of those options.  The exact numbers need adjusting, but the math is easy on this one:

1. Every stat starts at 4
2. Player rolls 2d6, six times, assigns to each stat in order.
3. Player pick a stat, rolls d6, adds roll to it.  (Probably repeat this a second time with a different stat, if you want more player choice.)  Stats cannot go higher than 17 with these rolls.

The distribution of 2d6 is easy:  1/36 for 2 and 12; 2/36 for 3 and 11; ... 6/36 for 7.  So you are going to get 6-8 44% of the time (5+6+5)/36, 5-9 67% of the time (4+5+6+5+4)/36.  After step 2, your average character will have 4 of 6 stats between 9 and 13, and slightly skewed to the middle of that range, with one lower and one higher.  Minimum stat is 6.  Max is 16.

With step 3, the player has a real choice to make.  They can use those d6s to have a strong possibility of pushing a higher roll to the max, but at the cost of potentially "wasting" part of a very high roll.  Or if they have a particular character they want to play, they may have an obvious weakness that needs addressing.  Only step 3 requires any thought, and thus the process should be reasonably fast for the vast majority of players.

4d6 will generally get you higher average stats for your pcs than 3d6. More important for class choice and min maxing is whether you permit arranging scores to taste, or straight down the line. If you dont allow arranging scores to taste, your class is effectively determined by your rolls. Personally my fav is one stat auto 15, roll 4d6 drop the lowest or 3d6 for the remainder, arrange as you like.

I also like to allow any player to use anyone else's rolled stats, albeit with a d3 penalty (I will also often roll a set of stats that the players can elect to use, too). So you get variety, unlike point buy, but retain equal (enough) starting point. Yes this means if someone happens to roll super high everyone will probably choose that array. So be it! Your group of adventurers is just tougher than average.

Greetings!

Well, I know that there are many fans of dirty, crippled, fucked up characters in the hobby. I also admit, *mechanically* there is some value and enjoyment in *overcoming* some deep flaw or another.

I have to say though, the idea of someone with severe physical disabilities somehow becoming a great champion, while emotionally satisfying--doesn't add up in the realism department.

I often think of my experience in the Marine Corps. I served in the Infantry, as a Dragon Master and as a machine gunner. I carried an M249 SAW. I saw hundreds, thousands of young men. Admittedly, not all of them were deeply *intellectual.* They were all strong, though. All were fast, and agile. All of them had impressive endurance and fortitude. Physically, they were all outstanding, quasi-Olympic athletes, with 8% or less bodyfat. Many had less than 5% bodyfat. We had some uber hard-chargers, such as myself, that had 3% bodyfat or even less. (I've read that Olympic athletes have 8% or less bodyfat, so there you go.) Everyone was rugged, and tough, easily able to march and hike for dozens of miles, loaded down like fucking mules with 100-lb. packs of gear, weapons, and equipment. All were ready and capable of surviving in the wilderness, in harsh, unforgiving climates, whether mountains, forest, desert, or jungle. All were accustomed to pain, struggle, and hardship. All were skilled in martial arts, weapons, armour and tactics, and were trained killers.

I oftentimes have a hard time with that known, factual knowledge, juxtaposed with Fighter Bob, who has a bunch of 8's and 10's in his profile, and is somehow considered fortunate to have a 12 or 14 in something.

So, while I appreciate the humour of the sacred *Random Dice Gods*--I also overall prefer stat methods where the characters actually resemble professional, physical beasts, capable of doing the job of being a hero.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1075597Greetings!

Well, I know that there are many fans of dirty, crippled, fucked up characters in the hobby. I also admit, *mechanically* there is some value and enjoyment in *overcoming* some deep flaw or another.

I have to say though, the idea of someone with severe physical disabilities somehow becoming a great champion, while emotionally satisfying--doesn't add up in the realism department.

I often think of my experience in the Marine Corps. I served in the Infantry, as a Dragon Master and as a machine gunner. I carried an M249 SAW. I saw hundreds, thousands of young men. Admittedly, not all of them were deeply *intellectual.* They were all strong, though. All were fast, and agile. All of them had impressive endurance and fortitude. Physically, they were all outstanding, quasi-Olympic athletes, with 8% or less bodyfat. Many had less than 5% bodyfat. We had some uber hard-chargers, such as myself, that had 3% bodyfat or even less. (I've read that Olympic athletes have 8% or less bodyfat, so there you go.) Everyone was rugged, and tough, easily able to march and hike for dozens of miles, loaded down like fucking mules with 100-lb. packs of gear, weapons, and equipment. All were ready and capable of surviving in the wilderness, in harsh, unforgiving climates, whether mountains, forest, desert, or jungle. All were accustomed to pain, struggle, and hardship. All were skilled in martial arts, weapons, armour and tactics, and were trained killers.

I oftentimes have a hard time with that known, factual knowledge, juxtaposed with Fighter Bob, who has a bunch of 8's and 10's in his profile, and is somehow considered fortunate to have a 12 or 14 in something.

So, while I appreciate the humour of the sacred *Random Dice Gods*--I also overall prefer stat methods where the characters actually resemble professional, physical beasts, capable of doing the job of being a hero.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

In 5e, that guy with Strength 8 can carry 120 lbs. all day long.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1075613In 5e, that guy with Strength 8 can carry 120 lbs. all day long.

I tend to ignore official 5e encumbrance numbers and just come up with something plausible. Something like 30 lb excess load for the STR 8 guy, maybe. When I was training in the Royal Signals reserve we were only supposed to have to do the 3 mile run with a 35 lb pack, since many Signals are women or not very strong, but in practice the instructors would be Infantry types and they'd make us (or at least the men) run with 50 lb or 60 lb packs. At least I never got a Parachute Regiment instructor, we were terrified of those guys! Would have been 100 lb packs all round...

(My second three mile run, I did some training in advance, and actually came in second or third out of about 20 - as a 28 year old nerd among tough 18 year olds  from the Coventry estates that was quite impressive, the instructors actually congratulated me - highlight of my Army careeer!)

BTW I would think 3% body fat must be great for picking up babes, not so great for cold weather survival - British Army training is mostly on cold moorland, and you *really* want a bit of insulation when out there overnight in the winter rain!

Quote from: S'mon;1075633I tend to ignore official 5e encumbrance numbers and just come up with something plausible. Something like 30 lb excess load for the STR 8 guy, maybe. When I was training in the Royal Signals reserve we were only supposed to have to do the 3 mile run with a 35 lb pack, since many Signals are women or not very strong, but in practice the instructors would be Infantry types and they'd make us run with 50 lb or 60 lb packs. At least I never got a Parachute Regiment instructor, we were terrified of those guys! Would have been 100 lb packs all round...

Greetings!

LOL! Oh yeah! I love it! Try marching for 25 miles, 100-lbs. of gear on you--not moving at *your* pace--but really hoofing it, at the Platoon Sergeant's pace. Sweat pouring down your brow; breathing; thirst always chewing on you; your back, shoulders, legs and feet all feel like they are on fire after while, and then gradually...by mile 10, 12, or 15. the aching pain becomes kind of distant, and numb as you sort of settle into the feeling of overall exhaustion. I remember always being of the mind, "Please, let's stop and rest!" to "Fuck no, let's not stop. It's too painful to stop. I'm in this rhythm now, lets just keep fucking marching onward!"

Finally, when the march is over--your socks are soaked. Every part of you feels like you've been beaten for hours. Then I had huge blisters the size of a 50-cent piece on my feet...geesus. Yeah, looking back, it's like, damn, I actually marched for 25 miles? Damn!

I remember leaning up against the shower wall, for an hour, the hot water pouring over me, for like, an hour. Having some fresh chow, afterwards, was like, damn, I feel human again! LOL!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1075634Greetings!

LOL! Oh yeah! I love it! Try marching for 25 miles, 100-lbs. of gear on you--not moving at *your* pace--but really hoofing it, at the Platoon Sergeant's pace. Sweat pouring down your brow; breathing; thirst always chewing on you; your back, shoulders, legs and feet all feel like they are on fire after while, and then gradually...by mile 10, 12, or 15. the aching pain becomes kind of distant, and numb as you sort of settle into the feeling of overall exhaustion. I remember always being of the mind, "Please, let's stop and rest!" to "Fuck no, let's not stop. It's too painful to stop. I'm in this rhythm now, lets just keep fucking marching onward!"

Finally, when the march is over--your socks are soaked. Every part of you feels like you've been beaten for hours. Then I had huge blisters the size of a 50-cent piece on my feet...geesus. Yeah, looking back, it's like, damn, I actually marched for 25 miles? Damn!

I remember leaning up against the shower wall, for an hour, the hot water pouring over me, for like, an hour. Having some fresh chow, afterwards, was like, damn, I feel human again! LOL!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, I think you USMC Infantry are a lot like our Paras. Thanks but no thanks!

I think it would be easier to convert what you want from 5e to DCC.

Rolling stats in 5e either doesn't work or gives everyone inflated stats. That's why I advocate nothing but point buy for 5e.

5e is meant to be the easy mode version of D&D with some vague similarities to older D&D. So everyone having EVEN MORE stats is a valid way to play, just don't expect people to be challenged.