Quote from: SHARK;1073682Greetings!

In thinking about how all of the various polytheistic religions in D&D are often presented as all playing nice with each other--especially in the Forgotten Realms--but others, as well...

SHARK

Are you familiar with the ancient City State of the Invincible Overlord?  That was one of the first mega-city/dungeons, long before Waterdeep.

The city was full of various religion and cult temples.  The above ground city was full of sweetness and light, where the various priests vied with each other in the courts and commons.  But every temple had at least one basement, usually two or three, and the entire undercity was connected by intervening basements, tunnels, sewers, and what not.  The raids and counter raids were constant.

Do they have after-religious-services ice cream socials in Happy Rainbow Barney Land? I like ice cream.

Semi-off topic, but is it strange to want to include a Wrath of the Immortals-style deification quest in a campaign that takes place in an otherwise modern setting?

Because I sort of want to do something like that....

Quote from: Opaopajr;1074782Do they have after-religious-services ice cream socials in Happy Rainbow Barney Land? I like ice cream.

Chocolate or vanilla?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1074791Semi-off topic, but is it strange to want to include a Wrath of the Immortals-style deification quest in a campaign that takes place in an otherwise modern setting?

Because I sort of want to do something like that....

Absolutely not strange. If you have those kinds of powers running around in your setting- just dress the archetypal symbols of that journey to fit your needs. Make it Epic As Fuck.

Quote from: jhkim;1074403The case in China and India are very different than Rome - where you see a new religion like Buddhism spreading, and there is very little conflict between it and existing faiths. They fight over plenty of other stuff, but fighting over religion is rare. Also, polytheistic religions are much more prone to compromise and syncretism - mixing and matching between different sources.

Historical China is far from happy-go-lucky - but it doesn't feature much religious intolerance.

Wrong.. Wrong and Wrong again.

The Polytheistic religions of the New World were in constant conflict with each other especially in South America where we have discovered many polytheistic cultures enslaving and sacrificing other polytheistic cultures to their gods.

The Chinese polytheistic cultures built a wall to keep out other polytheists. Like Trump, it was HUGE!!! And no Nancy didn't pay for that one either. But you can see it from space and it was all because one set of polytheist couldn't get along with another.

As far as India, the earliest Hindu populations were divided between north and south and conflicted with each other. Further, I think it is a stretch to label a religion that developed the Indian caste system as "tolerant".

I would like to also pint out that both the Hindu and Budhists have been fighting those fun loving Muslims since the 7th century, mostly because the Polytheists don't wan to mix with the Muslims and they did not build walls fast enough.

See also high school history books (maybe, at least back in my day).

Speaking of religion in Rainbow Land, I am currently writing my campaign world that models the fun loving medieval conflicts between the ascending Christians, failing Pagans, and the fun loving Muslims to the South. It is amazing how after adventuring in Forgotten Realms for long enough; good ole real world history feels fresh and exciting.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1074820Speaking of religion in Rainbow Land, I am currently writing my campaign world that models the fun loving medieval conflicts between the ascending Christians, failing Pagans, and the fun loving Muslims to the South. It is amazing how after adventuring in Forgotten Realms for long enough; good ole real world history feels fresh and exciting.

Side-bar. Have you ever read the "Prince of Nothing" series by R. Scott Bakker? It's a Quasi-Hellenic/Middle-Eastern influenced fantasy with an analog Islam, Christianity, combined with magical schools based on analogic and anagogic philosophy. It is *right* up your alley in terms of what you're describing.

Toss in some Tolkien, Dune, Cthulhu, Holy Crusades and counter-Jihads, Bene Gesserit-style mystcism and beyond Warhammer-levels of pure intense brutality - you might actually like it a lot.

Oh and those elves.... /shiver sweet oblivion... the elves.

Edit: There were once Rainbows in the Three-Seas Region of Earwa. They were devoured.

Quote from: tenbones;1074809Absolutely not strange. If you have those kinds of powers running around in your setting- just dress the archetypal symbols of that journey to fit your needs. Make it Epic As Fuck.

Well, then you might like my recently overhauled and updated Grand Theft Auto campaign setting, as one of the potential side quests involves a quest for immortality and possibly godhood, inspired by Wrath of the Immortals.

While the quest for deification is optional, if you can complete the quest before beating the main story, it will affect the ending.

Also, there are references to some classic RPG's including D&D, Boot Hill, Vampire: The Masquerade, and even the Amtgard Battle LARP.

Quote from: tenbones;1074823Side-bar. Have you ever read the "Prince of Nothing" series by R. Scott Bakker? It's a Quasi-Hellenic/Middle-Eastern influenced fantasy with an analog Islam, Christianity, combined with magical schools based on analogic and anagogic philosophy. It is *right* up your alley in terms of what you're describing.

Toss in some Tolkien, Dune, Cthulhu, Holy Crusades and counter-Jihads, Bene Gesserit-style mystcism and beyond Warhammer-levels of pure intense brutality - you might actually like it a lot.

Oh and those elves.... /shiver sweet oblivion... the elves.

Edit: There were once Rainbows in the Three-Seas Region of Earwa. They were devoured.

Wow I have not seen that but I am getting it. I've always felt that a bit familiarity helps you relate and have a bit more empathy for the inhabitants.

My campaign is low magic so there are no schools of magic/ bard colleges and most of the warlocks that can cast magic are in the thrall of devils. The elves in my world used to enslave the humans. The elves are grey and alien, and have mostly been driven back to the Fey Realm where the leach power off the slumbering Grey Elf King.

Millennia ago a "chosen" race called the Tall Kings (civilized Goliaths) defeated the elves and drove them back. After years of peace a group of  humans betray the Tall Kings and use magic to kill them all. Humanity falls and there is a split between the northern (Christian analog) and southern (Muslim analog) tribes.

The druids left in the world were handed down their powers from slaves of the Elves. But they are slowly being hunted down by the Northern Duchies. So here is the rub... Magic (aka miracles) work for all three: northern clerics, Fey worshipping druids, and the southern Warlocks. But I don't want to use a moral equivalency cop out so I have a bit more brain storming on that point.

Sorry, written on the phone, excuse any crap grammar.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1074743Are you familiar with the ancient City State of the Invincible Overlord?  That was one of the first mega-city/dungeons, long before Waterdeep.

The city was full of various religion and cult temples.  The above ground city was full of sweetness and light, where the various priests vied with each other in the courts and commons.  But every temple had at least one basement, usually two or three, and the entire undercity was connected by intervening basements, tunnels, sewers, and what not.  The raids and counter raids were constant.

Greetings!

Hello Crawford! Indeed, the City State of the Invincible Overlord is an excellent city and campaign supplement. Certainly not a weepy, mushy, Barney love fest amongst the religions. I always think that's a good thing! I'm very partial to historical realism. I tend to think that players can better identify with elements of real history, careflly mixed into the fantasy environment. It makes everything in the game more enjoyable, and more meaningful.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1073682In thinking about how all of the various polytheistic religions in D&D are often presented as all playing nice with each other--especially in the Forgotten Realms--but others, as well, I was thinking that being inspired from real-world history makes a campaign significantly more interesting and dynamic. Far from being Happy Rainbow Barney Sweetness, history adds deeper elements and a vivid dynamic that stands in stark contrast.

Yes, in many Real World historical settings, religions have been a source of conflict for the whole of recorded history, including today.

Quote from: SHARK;1073682The Roman Empire, for example, was an empire that embraced a polytheistic, Pagan religion. While the Romans are often celebrated and admired for their religious tolerance--the truth is distinctly, and in my view, harshly different.

The Romans embraced other cults and deities and Romanised them, helping them fit into their Pantheon, or produced hybrid versions of a Roman and non-Roman deity, they were very good at doing this.

Quote from: SHARK;1073682In the Roman conquest of Gaul, Celtic rebellions throughout Gaul were consistently sponsored by and inspired by Druids. The deeper reason for Rome's invasion and conquest of Britain was to crush this outstanding opposition which was fueling the resistance to Rome in Gaul. Once in Britain, the Romans realized that the seat of Druidic power was on the Isle of Man. Rome sent legions there to burn all of the sacred groves down, and kill all of the Druid priests. Druidism was outlawed throughout the Roman Empire. Worshippers of the Celtic Paganism were routinely hunted down, and crucified.

Yes, most people forget that the main reason for Julius Caesar's invasion of Britain was to stop the Britons from helping the Gauls.

The Druid stronghold was Anglesey rather than the Isle of Man, although Druids were on the Isle of Man as well. The Celts seemed to have the idea of an isle being sacred and an isle of an isle being particularly sacred. Britain was an island and Mona was an isle off Britain so was doubly sacred.

Many of the Celtic cults were Romanised, so Minerva-Sulis was worshipped at Bath, for example.

Quote from: SHARK;1073682Rome and Judea. While at first tolerant of Judeaism, the Roman Empire eventually sanctioned and outlawed Judaism as well. The Romans spent several years crushing Jewish rebellions in Judea, and laying siege to the city of Jerusalem, where upon the city's fall, the Romans are believed to have slaughtered upwards of 1,500,000 people. The city was destroyed, and purposely crushed and torn down. The Temple was taken apart, stone by stone, with even the floor stones being burned so hot so that the gold and silver lining and inlays would melt. The Jews were forbidden from even living in Judea, which is how the Jewish Diaspora began. All of the Jewish holy artifacts were carried off to Rome, as depicted in the Arch of Titus.

Judaism was targeted mainly because it wouldn't accept the worship of the Emperor. The same happened with Alexander the Great, they didn't want statues of Alexander the Great as idols to be worshipped. If the Romans hadn't insisted on putting statues of the Emperor in Herod's Temple, Judaism would probably have been tolerated.

Quote from: SHARK;1073682The Roman Empire outlawed Christianity. Thousands, tens of thousands of Christians were martyed. They were routinely fed to the lions in the Arena, and forced to be publicly tortured for the amusement of the vast crowds in the Coliseum. Many Christians were crucified, beheaded, tortured, and soaked in oil, and set on fire to burn to death. Roman agents and spies hunted Christian groups down, and had them placed under arrest and imprisoned, whereupon they were soon tortured and executed, in public, for all to see.

Similarly to Judaism, Christianity wouldn't accept Emperor Worship, but also didn't accept Roman Polytheism, so was a dangerous religion. If it had accepted Emperor-worship and Polytheism, Christianity would not have been persecuted in the way it was.

Quote from: SHARK;1073682At various times, other religions were also outlawed, and persecuted throughout the Roman Empire. There were occasions where in the city of Rome itself, lists of people known to be worshippers and members of various outlawed cults were declared to be heretics and Enemies of the State, and hunted down in the thousands, where they were tortured and executed. They, as well as many of their families as well. Of course, all of their lands, properties, and any wealth, was also siezed by the government.

The same thing happened when the Romans were Christianised, they turned their backs on the Roman Cults, eventually closed the temples or turned them into churches.

Quote from: SHARK;1073682So, a D&D campaign featuring the typical polytheistic system of religions does not have to be a Happy Rainbow Barney Land. Real world history provides plenty of inspiration where polytheistic, Pagan religions were definitely not tolerant and accepting at all.

As has been mentioned before, Glorantha has an inherent tension between some pantheons and is a fine example of polytheism in practice.

Quote from: soltakss;1074963Similarly to Judaism, Christianity wouldn't accept Emperor Worship, but also didn't accept Roman Polytheism, so was a dangerous religion. If it had accepted Emperor-worship and Polytheism, Christianity would not have been persecuted in the way it was.

To be fair, it also wouldn't have been Christianity if it had accepted Emperor-worship and Polytheism. The entire point of it was there was only one God and no matter what you suffered in this life he'd reward you for being faithful forever in Heaven.

Frankly, along with converting the wives (who converted their children), a shared culture of being persecuted really helped unite those who were faithful.

And it worked too... today Roman Polytheism is seen in the same light as fairy tales while Christianity took over the entire Roman Empire and spread across Europe, Asia and eventually to Australia and the Americas.

Quote from: Chris24601;1074975And it worked too... today Roman Polytheism is seen in the same light as fairy tales while Christianity took over the entire Roman Empire and spread across Europe, Asia and eventually to Australia and the Americas.

Reading pre-Christian Roman authors like Ovid in the original Latin*, they don't seem to actually believe in the Roman gods any more than we do. So it wasn't really an even match IMO.

*Yaay for a Grammar School education.

I devoutly worship the Roman Pantheon in real life, but then again, I'm just some random twenty-five year old nutjob in Virginia, so take my words with a grain of salt.

I was raised Protestant Christian and it just did not work out for me.

After spending my teen years as an insufferable militant atheist, I eventually broke down and did some spiritual soul searching...and that is when I found Roman polytheistic paganism.

Although Christianity is not for me and I used to rail against it, I've grown to respect it from a cultural perspective, due to the massive influence it had on Western culture, for good or ill.