Greetings!

In thinking about how all of the various polytheistic religions in D&D are often presented as all playing nice with each other--especially in the Forgotten Realms--but others, as well, I was thinking that being inspired from real-world history makes a campaign significantly more interesting and dynamic. Far from being Happy Rainbow Barney Sweetness, history adds deeper elements and a vivid dynamic that stands in stark contrast.

The Roman Empire, for example, was an empire that embraced a polytheistic, Pagan religion. While the Romans are often celebrated and admired for their religious tolerance--the truth is distinctly, and in my view, harshly different.

In the Roman conquest of Gaul, Celtic rebellions throughout Gaul were consistently sponsored by and inspired by Druids. The deeper reason for Rome's invasion and conquest of Britain was to crush this outstanding opposition which was fueling the resistance to Rome in Gaul. Once in Britain, the Romans realized that the seat of Druidic power was on the Isle of Man. Rome sent legions there to burn all of the sacred groves down, and kill all of the Druid priests. Druidism was outlawed throughout the Roman Empire. Worshippers of the Celtic Paganism were routinely hunted down, and crucified.

Rome and Judea. While at first tolerant of Judeaism, the Roman Empire eventually sanctioned and outlawed Judaism as well. The Romans spent several years crushing Jewish rebellions in Judea, and laying siege to the city of Jerusalem, where upon the city's fall, the Romans are believed to have slaughtered upwards of 1,500,000 people. The city was destroyed, and purposely crushed and torn down. The Temple was taken apart, stone by stone, with even the floor stones being burned so hot so that the gold and silver lining and inlays would melt. The Jews were forbidden from even living in Judea, which is how the Jewish Diaspora began. All of the Jewish holy artifacts were carried off to Rome, as depicted in the Arch of Titus.

The Roman Empire outlawed Christianity. Thousands, tens of thousands of Christians were martyed. They were routinely fed to the lions in the Arena, and forced to be publicly tortured for the amusement of the vast crowds in the Coliseum. Many Christians were crucified, beheaded, tortured, and soaked in oil, and set on fire to burn to death. Roman agents and spies hunted Christian groups down, and had them placed under arrest and imprisoned, whereupon they were soon tortured and executed, in public, for all to see.

At various times, other religions were also outlawed, and persecuted throughout the Roman Empire. There were occasions where in the city of Rome itself, lists of people known to be worshippers and members of various outlawed cults were declared to be heretics and Enemies of the State, and hunted down in the thousands, where they were tortured and executed. They, as well as many of their families as well. Of course, all of their lands, properties, and any wealth, was also siezed by the government.

So, a D&D campaign featuring the typical polytheistic system of religions does not have to be a Happy Rainbow Barney Land. Real world history provides plenty of inspiration where polytheistic, Pagan religions were definitely not tolerant and accepting at all.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1073682Greetings!

In thinking about how all of the various polytheistic religions in D&D are often presented as all playing nice with each other--especially in the Forgotten Realms--but others, as well, I was thinking that being inspired from real-world history makes a campaign significantly more interesting and dynamic. Far from being Happy Rainbow Barney Sweetness, history adds deeper elements and a vivid dynamic that stands in stark contrast.

The Roman Empire, for example, was an empire that embraced a polytheistic, Pagan religion. While the Romans are often celebrated and admired for their religious tolerance--the truth is distinctly, and in my view, harshly different.

In the Roman conquest of Gaul, Celtic rebellions throughout Gaul were consistently sponsored by and inspired by Druids. The deeper reason for Rome's invasion and conquest of Britain was to crush this outstanding opposition which was fueling the resistance to Rome in Gaul. Once in Britain, the Romans realized that the seat of Druidic power was on the Isle of Man. Rome sent legions there to burn all of the sacred groves down, and kill all of the Druid priests. Druidism was outlawed throughout the Roman Empire. Worshippers of the Celtic Paganism were routinely hunted down, and crucified.

Rome and Judea. While at first tolerant of Judeaism, the Roman Empire eventually sanctioned and outlawed Judaism as well. The Romans spent several years crushing Jewish rebellions in Judea, and laying siege to the city of Jerusalem, where upon the city's fall, the Romans are believed to have slaughtered upwards of 1,500,000 people. The city was destroyed, and purposely crushed and torn down. The Temple was taken apart, stone by stone, with even the floor stones being burned so hot so that the gold and silver lining and inlays would melt. The Jews were forbidden from even living in Judea, which is how the Jewish Diaspora began. All of the Jewish holy artifacts were carried off to Rome, as depicted in the Arch of Titus.

The Roman Empire outlawed Christianity. Thousands, tens of thousands of Christians were martyed. They were routinely fed to the lions in the Arena, and forced to be publicly tortured for the amusement of the vast crowds in the Coliseum. Many Christians were crucified, beheaded, tortured, and soaked in oil, and set on fire to burn to death. Roman agents and spies hunted Christian groups down, and had them placed under arrest and imprisoned, whereupon they were soon tortured and executed, in public, for all to see.

At various times, other religions were also outlawed, and persecuted throughout the Roman Empire. There were occasions where in the city of Rome itself, lists of people known to be worshippers and members of various outlawed cults were declared to be heretics and Enemies of the State, and hunted down in the thousands, where they were tortured and executed. They, as well as many of their families as well. Of course, all of their lands, properties, and any wealth, was also siezed by the government.

So, a D&D campaign featuring the typical polytheistic system of religions does not have to be a Happy Rainbow Barney Land. Real world history provides plenty of inspiration where polytheistic, Pagan religions were definitely not tolerant and accepting at all.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, see my read is the opposite of yours. The empire was tolerant of other tolerant religions. Syncretism was always an option for them if it was an option for you.

Where it had a problem was with intolerant my-way-or-the-highway religions, especially monotheistic ones like Judaism and Christianity

Quote from: Zirunel;1073688Yeah, see my read is the opposite of yours. The empire was tolerant of other tolerant religions. Syncretism was always an option for them if it was an option for you.

Where it had a problem was with intolerant my-way-or-the-highway religions, especially monotheistic ones like Judaism and Christianity

Hey there! Well, there was also the Druidic religion of the Pagan Celts--they weren't monotheistic. And, there were other Pagan religions that were persecuted as well by the Romans, for example, that were not monotheistic.

Of course, there's also examples of non-monotheistic religions being persecuted by other Pagans as well, such as the Kurgans persecuting religions of Old Europe, and strife of native Goddess-centered religions on Crete persecuting male-focused religious cults from the mainland of Greece, around 1200 BC.

Then, of course, I didn't detail, but there has been plenty of religious strife and persecution in India for example, between various religions and flavours of Hinduism, Buddism, Jainism, and other Pagan religions there. They have dozens, hundreds even, through the centuries. All before any arrival of Christianity, Judeaism, or Islam.

Interesting stuff. Lots of different ingredients that can be used to make religious factions and religious life different in the campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Of course the big difference in D&D is that the gods are actually real and there are worshipers with actual magical powers.

So using actual history where they aren't and didn't doesn't make much sense.

Quote from: SHARK;1073690Well, there was also the Druidic religion of the Pagan Celts--they weren't monotheistic. And, there were other Pagan religions that were persecuted as well by the Romans, for example, that were not monotheistic.

It's not my field, but my impression is that the Romans didn't care about the religion of the pagan Celts as long as they respected the political authority of Rome. There was essentially no attempt to force the Celts to worship Jupiter and other Roman gods. As long as the Celts cooperated with the legions and paid their taxes, they were free to worship whomever they pleased.

Quote from: SHARK;1073690Of course, there's also examples of non-monotheistic religions being persecuted by other Pagans as well, such as the Kurgans persecuting religions of Old Europe, and strife of native Goddess-centered religions on Crete persecuting male-focused religious cults from the mainland of Greece, around 1200 BC.

Then, of course, I didn't detail, but there has been plenty of religious strife and persecution in India for example, between various religions and flavours of Hinduism, Buddism, Jainism, and other Pagan religions there. They have dozens, hundreds even, through the centuries. All before any arrival of Christianity, Judeaism, or Islam.

I don't know about the Kurgans - but while there was some tension, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism got along much much better than the Abrahamic religions. There's certainly been some oppression and bias, but nothing even close to the religious wars that raged across Europe and the Middle East.

China similarly had a mix of different beliefs - Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism - but they would often all three be practiced alongside each other. Again, there was tension - particularly over Buddhist monasteries as social/political entities - but not the same sort of conflict as in Abrahamic religions. It's not that China is a happy rainbow Barney land - but just that the conflicts that arose were not directly over religion, but more over other issues.


Of course, in a world with real gods and objective good/evil, the religious practice is going to be quite different.

Quote from: jhkim;1073716It's not my field, but my impression is that the Romans didn't care about the religion of the pagan Celts as long as they respected the political authority of Rome. There was essentially no attempt to force the Celts to worship Jupiter and other Roman gods. As long as the Celts cooperated with the legions and paid their taxes, they were free to worship whomever they pleased.

Pretty much this. The Roman purge of the Druids was not against Celtic Paganism but specifically the Druid social caste.

Celtic society was very clannish and tribal, and the Druids existed outside, above, and beyond that clannish structure. The Druids as a caste were a powerful influence on Celtic society, both in a religious and in a socio-political sense, and were the closest thing to a unifying force among the Celts, which was why the Druids specifically posed a threat to the Roman state.

Rome never outlawed the practice of Celtic Paganism (in some cases, there was even a fusion of Roman and Celtic beliefs, deities such as Epona, Sulis, and Silvanus are evidence of this) but instead outlawed the Druids as a distinct social and political caste.

Now, monotheistic religious such as Judaism and Christianity were definitely outlawed and persecuted in Pagan Rome because of their exclusively monotheistic outlook.

That and their direct conflict with the Roman cultural and political norms of the time.

That being said, SHARK has some good points of his own and I am inclined to agree with him that in D&D, there would very likely be conflicts between various religious orders, even in a polytheistic world.

Quote from: jhkim;1073716It's not my field, but my impression is that the Romans didn't care about the religion of the pagan Celts as long as they respected the political authority of Rome. There was essentially no attempt to force the Celts to worship Jupiter and other Roman gods. As long as the Celts cooperated with the legions and paid their taxes, they were free to worship whomever they pleased.



I don't know about the Kurgans - but while there was some tension, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism got along much much better than the Abrahamic religions. There's certainly been some oppression and bias, but nothing even close to the religious wars that raged across Europe and the Middle East.

China similarly had a mix of different beliefs - Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism - but they would often all three be practiced alongside each other. Again, there was tension - particularly over Buddhist monasteries as social/political entities - but not the same sort of conflict as in Abrahamic religions. It's not that China is a happy rainbow Barney land - but just that the conflicts that arose were not directly over religion, but more over other issues.


Of course, in a world with real gods and objective good/evil, the religious practice is going to be quite different.

Greetings!

Yep, the Pagan Romans were tolerant towards many other religions. I gave some examples where even in a tolerant Pagan society, such a society was not as tolerant as we might think, or that a Happy Rainbow Barney Land of D&D, specifically, would suggest.

Same thing with India, the Minoans, Old Europe and the Kurgans, as well as Asia, like you mentioned. For a variety of different reasons, there was not a Barney Land tolerance for all religions. Extending from that, in D&D, ala Forgotten Realms, we have dozens of religions--even the otherwise "Good" and "Nuetral" ones, as opposed to Evil religions, and yet with such enormous variety, there is relatively little conflict.

I tend to think that it is more likely that there would be conflict. As I mentioned, even without monotheism, there are a variety of conflicts that have gone on in otherwise polytheistic, Pagan religions in our own history.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1073719Pretty much this. The Roman purge of the Druids was not against Celtic Paganism but specifically the Druid social caste.

Celtic society was very clannish and tribal, and the Druids existed outside, above, and beyond that clannish structure. The Druids as a caste were a powerful influence on Celtic society, both in a religious and in a socio-political sense, and were the closest thing to a unifying force among the Celts, which was why the Druids specifically posed a threat to the Roman state.

Rome never outlawed the practice of Celtic Paganism (in some cases, there was even a fusion of Roman and Celtic beliefs, deities such as Epona, Sulis, and Silvanus are evidence of this) but instead outlawed the Druids as a distinct social and political caste.

Now, monotheistic religious such as Judaism and Christianity were definitely outlawed and persecuted in Pagan Rome because of their exclusively monotheistic outlook.

That and their direct conflict with the Roman cultural and political norms of the time.

That being said, SHARK has some good points of his own and I am inclined to agree with him that in D&D, there would very likely be conflicts between various religious orders, even in a polytheistic world.

Greetings!

Precisely, Sammy!

With the Romans and Celtic Paganism, yeah, the Romans were tolerant. They were tolerant as long as we slaughter all of your Druid priests, burn down all of your Sacred Groves, and indeed--they outlawed any training or institution of new Druid priests. Druids in Gaul for example, years *after* the Roman conquest under Ceasar, were hunted down and crucified. Later on, the Roman legions wiped out the Druids in Britain and the Isle of Man.

I've read historians that have commented that while Romans adopted Celtic gods, and syncretism proceeded for all of the Celts under Rome--the Romans essentially exterminated the Celtic religion. Before the Romans, Celtic Paganism was vibrant, growing, and distinctive.

After the Romans, Celtic Paganism was a shattered husk of what it was *before*.

Good examples all though of how polytheistic religions would likely be far more complex and nuanced--and not always tolerant--like what is depicted in Happy Rainbow Barney Land. LOL

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1073724Greetings!

Precisely, Sammy!

With the Romans and Celtic Paganism, yeah, the Romans were tolerant. They were tolerant as long as we slaughter all of your Druid priests, burn down all of your Sacred Groves, and indeed--they outlawed any training or institution of new Druid priests. Druids in Gaul for example, years *after* the Roman conquest under Ceasar, were hunted down and crucified. Later on, the Roman legions wiped out the Druids in Britain and the Isle of Man.

I've read historians that have commented that while Romans adopted Celtic gods, and syncretism proceeded for all of the Celts under Rome--the Romans essentially exterminated the Celtic religion. Before the Romans, Celtic Paganism was vibrant, growing, and distinctive.

After the Romans, Celtic Paganism was a shattered husk of what it was *before*.

Good examples all though of how polytheistic religions would likely be far more complex and nuanced--and not always tolerant--like what is depicted in Happy Rainbow Barney Land. LOL

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Agreed. I never understood the concept of societal-level religious tolerance (a concept dating back to the Enlightenment at the earliest and not gaining major traction until the 20th Century) in a medieval fantasy setting, even a polytheistic one.

As seen with Rome and other historical examples, the majority of ancient and post-classical polytheist societies were not the happy-go-lucky beacons of tolerance that the Forgotten Realms is.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1073725Agreed. I never understood the concept of societal-level religious tolerance (a concept dating back to the Enlightenment at the earliest and not gaining major traction until the 20th Century) in a medieval fantasy setting, even a polytheistic one.

As seen with Rome and other historical examples, the majority of ancient and post-classical polytheist societies were not the happy-go-lucky beacons of tolerance that the Forgotten Realms is.

Greetings!

Indeed! of course, merely being a *barbarian* was good enough to treat you like the animal scum! LOL

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

See Glorantha for a more verossimile treatment of religions.

How much of the tolerance is due to idealism, and how much of it is due to many settings enshrining the concept of Balance between Good and Evil as a necessary and positive thing?

In my games these pantheons are all in competition with one another.

So it's War, peacock. WAR.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1074319How much of the tolerance is due to idealism, and how much of it is due to many settings enshrining the concept of Balance between Good and Evil as a necessary and positive thing?

The latter. That way, evil isn't "openly endorsed" , but good is "put in its place". aka "the Middle Ages as they should have been".

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1073725Agreed. I never understood the concept of societal-level religious tolerance (a concept dating back to the Enlightenment at the earliest and not gaining major traction until the 20th Century) in a medieval fantasy setting, even a polytheistic one.

As seen with Rome and other historical examples, the majority of ancient and post-classical polytheist societies were not the happy-go-lucky beacons of tolerance that the Forgotten Realms is.

The case in China and India are very different than Rome - where you see a new religion like Buddhism spreading, and there is very little conflict between it and existing faiths. They fight over plenty of other stuff, but fighting over religion is rare. Also, polytheistic religions are much more prone to compromise and syncretism - mixing and matching between different sources.

Historical China is far from happy-go-lucky - but it doesn't feature much religious intolerance.