Quote from: J ArcaneIf they're so irrelevant, why does everyone insist on talking about them all the time.

For people that supposedly don't matter, they get an awful lot of attention.  

Precisely. I wouldn't say Ron Edwards is "irrelevant", he is still very much "relevant"; which is what makes him dangerous and an enemy to be stopped.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThat would pretty much be the definition of Swine right there: they hate anything that's popular.

Hey, Pundy ... I've been thinking that we could have a fun discussion about The Swine, and whether they actually exist outside of your head.  Maybe revive the pistols-at-dawn format where two people post in the open.  Does that sound like fun to you?

Quote from: DrewOops. I didn't realise I was reiterating a point you'd already made.

That's what comes of flitting between posting here, writing a new adventure for my group and playing God of War 2. :deflated:

That's quite alright.  As I said, you stated things far better than I did.

Quote from: TonyLBHey, Pundy ... I've been thinking that we could have a fun discussion about The Swine, and whether they actually exist outside of your head.  Maybe revive the pistols-at-dawn format where two people post in the open.  Does that sound like fun to you?

You know I'm always up for a challenge, however with several work projects plus a major gaming writing project still up in the air, I don't know if I'd have time just now. Ask me again in a month, if you still want to.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou know I'm always up for a challenge, however with several work projects plus a major gaming writing project still up in the air, I don't know if I'd have time just now. Ask me again in a month, if you still want to.

Sure, it'll keep.  Just seems like the kind of thing that'd be fun, whenever it makes sense in our lives.

Quote from: DrewI can't help but feel sometimes that most of the anti-Forge brigade have been suckered. By railing against Ron and his cohorts they're giving the whole "movement" further oxygen and momentum. It's allowing someone else to frame our perceptions of what this hobby actually is, taking up bandwidth that could otherwise be used for far more productive pursuits.

You know, add a few more 'anti's and anti-RPG.net, and you've summed up theRPGsite

The thing that drives many people batty about Ron is that he wasn't out to create games, but to create a MOVEMENT, and by nature strong movements annoy some people. And while the movement may produce great games and fulfill its purpose, it tends to take over as it's own thing, like all movements are apt to do.

The problem now is that the brand 'indie' is much like the brand 'RPG': ambiguous, public domain, and carrying more identifying weight behind it than any actual indie game brand. Which is why I'll never call anything I do 'indie' or an 'RPG'.

And I listened to the interview, but I'm not getting the same 'vibe' people are talking about. Perhaps I need to see his eyes and mannerisms to get the full effect.

Quote from: David RThose against the Forge have in fact fed into the creation of the myth of Ron's influence/relevence. The so-called Forge haters themselves have their own agendas about playstyles so I'm not exactly in their camp either....and nobody seems to play Jorune.

If their theory cannot include Jorune, well then that's a pretty fundamental flaw.

I'd be delighted to play it, and even GM it. Unfortunately, like all such detailed settings (Harn, Tekumel, etc) you only really get more out of it than any run-of-the-mill setting if you're really interested in all the details of it. You need players who want to read about things, and explore and learn.

If, like me, you've players who aren't roleplaying fanatics and just like to show up and have fun (whether thespy or hacky), then settings like Jorune will just fall flat - or at best, do no more for players than other less detailed settings.

And that's my theory bit for today: "There's no sense in the GM being much more into the game than the players are."

Quote from: MoriartyThe people saying Ron Edwards, and by extension the Forge, has no relevance to Joe d'Gamer have a point. But to say Edwards and co. has NO relevance at all is short-sighted, not when you have Bob d'Game Designer of the World's Most Important and Significant RPG sitting up and taking notice.

This Internet snowball fight amounts to little more than preaching to everyone's respective choirs. The real influence the Forge has is not to us gamers, but to the RPG designers.

I think perhaps Moriarty is confusing "admiring" with "influence." I may admire, say, the way Jean-Claude Van Damme does a roundhouse kick, or Nigella Lawson's boobs, but that does not mean that given the chance I would do a roundhouse kick or grab Nigella Lawson's boobs. Admiring things is not the same as being influenced by them.

I've yet to notice any GNS, Dogs of the Vineyard, Sorcerer, etc influence on D&D 3.5. Perhaps those who know it better than I do could enlighten me? In what way have the Forger games influenced D&D? Could someone point me to the game mechanics, writing style, philosophy or anything else which has stepped in?

Quote from: JimBobOzI've yet to notice any GNS, Dogs of the Vineyard, Sorcerer, etc influence on D&D 3.5. Perhaps those who know it better than I do could enlighten me? In what way have the Forger games influenced D&D? Could someone point me to the game mechanics, writing style, philosophy or anything else which has stepped in?

What? You haven't noticed the razor sharp play focus of recent DnD over pointless world building or all that other 90's crap?

Listen to the DnD podcast dude - Mike Mearls is all focused on how things work at the table, rather than the non-gaming part of the hobby.

Obviously that came from the forge.

Pffft!

Before there was the Forge, there was the Gaming Outpost, and thats where Mike was from. If anything, they stole their crap from him.

In any case, the "razor sharp focus" of D&D right now, (which is actually kinda flexible, really) can be much more strongly attributed to Monte Cook, Jonathan Tweet,  and Skip Williams.

Quote from: Erik BoielleListen to the DnD podcast dude - Mike Mearls is all focused on how things work at the table, rather than the non-gaming part of the hobby.

Obviously that came from the forge.

This is a quantum leap of logic. WotC is no more influenced by The Forge than Bill Gates or Oprah is.

Saying that the "evolution" of D&D is linked to the Forge (an obscure RPG site) is like saying that the "evolution" of McDonald's is influenced by Joe's Burger Shack (an obscure burger joint in Nowhere, U.S.A.).

Quote from: JohnnyWannabeThis is a quantum leap of logic.

Well, in fairness, Mike Mearls was one of the original people who helped launch the Forge. That said, he's since made most of his money and nearly all of his fame by actively avoiding the application of its philosophy in game design.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWhat? You haven't noticed the razor sharp play focus of recent DnD over pointless world building or all that other 90's crap?

Listen to the DnD podcast dude - Mike Mearls is all focused on how things work at the table, rather than the non-gaming part of the hobby.

Obviously that came from the forge.

You seriously believe focus on table play was invented by the Forge?

I always considered Gary Gygax and Aaron Allston to be very, very, play/table focused.

I think old Gygax was pretty focused on what happened at the game table, so much so that he advised keeping many things mysterious to the players.
   As this book is the exclusive precinct of the DM, you must view any non-DM player possessing it as something less than worthy of honorable death. Peeping players there will undoubtedly be, but they are simply lessening their own enjoyment of the game by taking away some of the sense of wonder that otherwise arises from a game which has rules hidden from participants. It in in your interests, and in theirs, to discourage possession of this book by players. If any of your participants do read herein, it is suggested that you assess them a heavy fee for consulting "sages and other sources of information not normally attainable by the inhabitants of your milieu. If they express knowledge which could only be harnered by consulting these pages, a magic item or two can be taken as payment - insufficient, but perhaps it will tend to discourage such actions.

- Gary Gygax in the Preface to the Dungeon Masters Guide (1979)
Mind you, the Forger types seem to have a pretty poor grasp of what D&D and other "mainstream" games are about. For example, discussed here on rpg.net is John Wick's experience with D&D during a con which led him to write a new rpg, a sort of anti-D&D (as he saw D&D). This all came from his LJ here.

Quote from: John Wick"Isn't this where we came in?"

Way back in the '60's, Michael Moorcock created Elric. He did so with a specific purpose: to create a hero who was the polar opposite of Conan.

Conan is big and strong.
Elric is an albino who needs drugs to live.

Conan fears magic and sorcery.
Elric is a sorcerer who makes bargains with demons.

Conan is a barbarian, uneducated and savage, who wins his own kingdom by his own hand.
Elric is an Emperor who throws away his kingdom because he's bored.

And that's how Elric was born. Inspired by Mr. Moorcock's lead, I wanted to design a fantasy game. Specifically, I wanted to design a fantasy game that was the polar opposite of D&D. A game that would address all the things I thought were vital, and yet missing, from the world's most famous fantasy game. Specifically, I wanted to make mechanics out of things that weren't important in Dungeons & Dragons.

I've played a lot of D&D. Probably more than I should have. I took a long, cold, objective look at it, found the things I thought were missing, and went at it.

I took the same philosophy I had with Wilderness of Mirrors. I looked at the other spy games, found what I felt was missing, and made mechanics out of them.

And here's what I came up with.

In D&D, there are certain elements of your character that just aren't important. You can tell because they don't give you any kind of bonus on your rolls. Your character's name. Your character's gender. Your character's family. Your character's past.

I played in a weekend of RPGA events with a character named "Fighter." (Pronounced "Fite-Or.") Fighter was a Thief. (Not a rogue. I hate rogues.) Fighter's gender was "thon." An old White Wolf April Fool's Day joke. Fighter spoke in third person (like Cerebus and The Rock) so I never had to refer to Fighter's gender at all. And whenever we encountered anything that was threatening, Fighter killed it and took its stuff.

I played in a whole series of RPGA events this way. Not once did anyone say anything about my character's oddities or behavior... because they were never an issue. Not once. Fighter was a nameless, sexless killing machine with no past, no friends, no family, no history. And Fighter thrived.

I also noticed the characters were, essentially, psychopaths who killed their way through life for gold and profit. Their actions had little, if any, consequences. There were no laws, let alone law enforcement, and the world's "culture" was anything but. Regardless of their alignments, my playmates were, for all intents and purposes, chaotic evil. Chaotic neutral, at least. They did what they wanted, when they wanted, how they wanted to do it and there was no authority at all to stop them.

No magistrates, no sheriffs, no upper class at all. The only people we ever encountered were serfs and peons. The entire upper class was gone. MIA. Vanished. Invisible.

The money we acquired had nothing at all to do with the economy. In fact, the world had no economy. Just piles and piles and piles of gold. And it seemed we had all of it. As soon as Fighter acquired enough gold to buy a castle (by the end of one weekend of gaming), I said, "Fighter retires." The rest of the group looked at me strangely. "Fighter takes Fighter's gold, buys land, builds a castle around some farms, and declares himself King of Fighterland."

There was no system in place to handle this choice. The other players just looked at me strangely. But I had enough gold to last the rest of my life and no real need to put myself in physical danger ever again. Fighter retired to the Bahamas and was never seen again.

I came away from the experience with the following conclusions. My game needed the following things:


Your character's name is a mechanic that gives bonuses to your rolls.
Your character's background is a mechanic that gives bonuses to your rolls.
Your character's family is a mechanic that gives bonuses to your rolls.
Gender is (if not a mechanic) a crucial element of play.
Economy is a mechanic your character can interact with and influence.
The upper class is the focus of the game and crucial to the world's survival.
The law is not only present, but a mechanic players can interact with and influence.
These were my starting goals.

I was also inspired after playing Spirit of the Century (a great &^%in' game) to employ the open licensed FATE system. While I've taken many liberties with it (which I shall be making OGL myself), the system of Aspects and Phases was so much fun, I just had to use it.

Based on all of that, behind this cut-text link is the beginning of the character creation system for Houses of the Blooded. I hope you enjoy it!

His experience of D&D, I would say, has quite a lot to do with the convention format, combined with his being deliberately a fuckwit (that is, not giving his character a proper name, gender, etc) in the game sessions - a convention game brings together players who don't know each-other, and there's pressure to finish a particular scenario in a specified number of sessions, so if you have a fuckwit player you put up with them. In a long-term, open-ended campaign, I think almost all GMs and players over 13 would have asked Wick if he was going to give his character some sort of personality and background - including a real name and gender.

Gygax's advice was to "expel" any players who were "disruptive" as Wick was trying to be... that is, if the "blue bolt from heaven doing damage on the offender's head" didn't work.

Anyway, that shows how well these guys understand D&D, and tells us something about the idea that they invented this or that way of looking at games.

Wick also doesn't know shit about Moorcock and Elric, but that's another matter entirely. Here we're talking about rpgs. Wick, as a Forger-type, says, "I was a fuckstick at a convention while playing D&D, and no-one kicked me in the 'nads. Obviously D&D is broken."

Wow - that Wick stuff is pretty screwed up.