Which OSR game do you feel has the best gun rules?

5e D&D?

aheh. But it is true. 5e is probably the best example of an OSR game with ok gun rules.

Personally I just go back to the old City by the Sea module from Dragon and use its fun rules for guns. Or any of the firearm articles in Dragon.

Alot of the newer OSR stuff tends to make guns a bit too powerful or sometimes a bit underpowered. City by the Sea hit the right balance.

Though another good resource that is probably compatible-ish is the first Pulp Heroes for d20 rather than d20modern. It approached the whole thing using the 3e D&D system rather than the d20m system.

Also depends on what level of firearms you want?

A single action (be it a normal one, a reaction or a bonus action) to reload a musket?  I think 5e is out to lunch to allow such rapid reloading of such weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbxZ1k9NQ

I tend to do ignore armour and a good damage die (in OD&D 1d6+1) with natural 20s just killing the target (well, save or die).  However I like massive penalties for range for smooth bore weapons that are firing a ball with a relatively wide gap.  Rifled muskets/pistols and later conical rounds are another matter.

Another thing I do is blow by blow combat where we don't change game modes to combat rounds but stay in describing things so the long reload times can really, really matter.  Generally speaking those with muskets tend to fire their one shot, fix bayonets and get stuck in.

I agree. Just watching the video example it tool the rifleman about 12 seconds to reload and fire. So say 2 actions?

As for the musket being an insta-kill weapon. Not a chance unless you are shooting low level characters who are practically standing still. Instead I'd add the wound rules from the DMG and system shock too.

As noted in other threads on the subject here. The main problem is that too many people elevate forearms to insta-death. It just doesnt work that way and really doesnt work that way in a fantasy setting.

But... As I noted in an older thread. Masque of the Red Death had a good idea of if you rolled a 6 for damage then you rolled it again and added it. In fact Masques firearms list and rules are darn good for dropping into any OSR. Not sure how viable WWs d20m take on Masque works. I'll have a look and comment later. But as it stands a normal rifle in Masque did 2d6-1 damage. But a repeating carbine could crack off 4 shots in a round all at 2d6+1 damage and a pistol could get off 6 shorts at 2d6+1. An average of 8 points of damage per shot that connects. (48 for all 6) Add in any criticals or exploding dice rolls and Masques gunfights tended to be deadly. On top of that armour only afforded protection at a distance. And only the higher end types. No protection at short range, reduced by 5 at medium and 4 at long range. Shields only gave bonus at medium and long ranges.

Worse. DEX mods to AC were only if you were aware of the shooter. Otherwise no DEX bonus. Did I mention it was a deadly setting?

The main drawback I think was that they should have reduced the HP gain to cap at like level 5 and the +x from there. Otherwise a solder level 20 would average 82 HP. 50 at level 10. Though a level 13 soldier unloading a pair of revolvers into someone could well average 96 damage before any exploding die if all 12 hit. (A level 7 soldier could do it too on their alternating rounds where they get 2 attacks. But are less likely to get all to hit.)

As usual. Lots of ways to go about it.

What do you want the gun to do? Decide that, then base rules around it.

If the average human has X hit points, then you can make guns do X damage as the average.

AKA, that's why melee weapons do 1D6 damage in OD&D against the average human with 1D6 hit points.

Then you can add modifiers based on the various "power levels" of the guns in your campaign.

I probably should have mentioned that I do natural 20, target saves or die for pretty much any lethal attack.  The best possible smash to the head with a mace, a crossbow bolt through the sternum, a sword or axe to the neck, an arrow to the brain, whatever.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1067717What do you want the gun to do? Decide that, then base rules around it.

Best response. (If not to the original question, at least in general.)

I run LotFP.
I very much like the firearms rules in the Appendix of Rules & Magic.

Would the d20 version of Weird War 2 count as OSR? It wasn't 3.0 or d20 modern, but not exactly AD&D either. As I recall the firearm rules were decent-ish, although it has been a long time since I've looked at the rules, I got it for the setting content not rule system.

Quote from: Omega;1067707I agree. Just watching the video example it tool the rifleman about 12 seconds to reload and fire. So say 2 actions?

During the 1700s the British Army expected a soldier to maintain a rate of fire of 4 shots per minute with a musket (smooth bore), so 12-15 seconds sounds about right. An actual rifled flintlock was much slower, more like 1 1/2 to 2 shots per minute.

Had a glance at White Wolf's d20 Masque and in that they opted instead that criticals do 3x damage. An army pistol and a repeating carbine are a 1d10.
And damn that is a-lot of filler prose padding the book!

5e, but that's not saying much.

Has anyone used Autarch's Guns of War? In my experience their stuff is pretty good but I don't have this supplement yet.

I have also read good things about Operation Whitebox for a more modern approach, but I don't have it, either.

Ha, I'm not much help in this thread!

Quote from: atomic;1067906Has anyone used Autarch's Guns of War? In my experience their stuff is pretty good but I don't have this supplement yet.

I have also read good things about Operation Whitebox for a more modern approach, but I don't have it, either.

Ha, I'm not much help in this thread!

Haven't used it, but I've given it a couple of readthroughs.

Guns at War incorporates gunpowder, artillery, and personal firearms up through the pike and shot era into ACKS, including ACKS' economic system. Therein lies a key point - ACKS firearms are not substantially superior to muscle-powered weapons. However, the economics of raising firearm-equipped units follows historical costs (mostly - major exception explained momentarily), which demonstrates why firearms, once the flintlock was perfected, became the main armament worldwide, wherever they were introduced.* The exception is a Judge's option - when integrating gunpowder into a fantasy setting, there are options presented for consideration as to how to economically balance the cost of gunpowder and firearms with the cost of magic items and hired spellcasting.

*If I recall correctly, Japan reacted against firearms after their initial introduction - because they allowed a peasant to be a significant threat to an armored samurai. Then again, there may be some half-remembered legend or such informing this thought.

In Lion & Dragon, a gun shot can be an insta-kill through hit point damage, but it's not highly likely (and as we're talking early firearms, they take forever to reload).

Of course, if you get a critical, a bullet can be an insta-kill, but so can any other weapon. In my RPGPundit Presents: Advanced OSR Critical Tables, there's a specific Crit table for bullets.

Personaly I find for simple rules you ether A give guns some kind of if you max reroll and add mechanic or B give them higher them normal damage and some draw backs. Witch ever you go depends on how you want to handle your game and what gameplay consolations you want to make or are willing to make.

Quote from: Chivalric;1067676A single action (be it a normal one, a reaction or a bonus action) to reload a musket?  I think 5e is out to lunch to allow such rapid reloading of such weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbxZ1k9NQ

I tend to do ignore armour and a good damage die (in OD&D 1d6+1) with natural 20s just killing the target (well, save or die).  However I like massive penalties for range for smooth bore weapons that are firing a ball with a relatively wide gap.  Rifled muskets/pistols and later conical rounds are another matter.

Another thing I do is blow by blow combat where we don't change game modes to combat rounds but stay in describing things so the long reload times can really, really matter.  Generally speaking those with muskets tend to fire their one shot, fix bayonets and get stuck in.

Quote from: RandyB;1067941Haven't used it, but I've given it a couple of readthroughs.

Guns at War incorporates gunpowder, artillery, and personal firearms up through the pike and shot era into ACKS, including ACKS' economic system. Therein lies a key point - ACKS firearms are not substantially superior to muscle-powered weapons. However, the economics of raising firearm-equipped units follows historical costs (mostly - major exception explained momentarily), which demonstrates why firearms, once the flintlock was perfected, became the main armament worldwide, wherever they were introduced.* The exception is a Judge's option - when integrating gunpowder into a fantasy setting, there are options presented for consideration as to how to economically balance the cost of gunpowder and firearms with the cost of magic items and hired spellcasting.

*If I recall correctly, Japan reacted against firearms after their initial introduction - because they allowed a peasant to be a significant threat to an armored samurai. Then again, there may be some half-remembered legend or such informing this thought.

Well I can't speak to the whole history but japan got the firearm as match locks in 1512 from a Portuguese shipwreck and by the time the black ships showed up they where a huge part of Japanese warfare.
Actually that was part of why the Japanese where some what embarrassed when they started trading with country's other then the dutch they where still useing matchlocks in the 1840s and where getting traded old junk in the form of flintlocks and there was no question in there minds that these where better weapons then what they where producing domestically in nearly every way.