I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Personally, I would like to have enough to feel like I could furnish an average dwelling in the setting and build a reasonable wardrobe.  In an ideal world I suppose it would be nice to have the informaton to build a structure such as labor costs and supplies and perhaps even the value of trade goods like how much for a pound of salt or something like that, but I can live without it if it isn't avalible.

Quote from: tenbones;1063485Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog

I was going to specifically mention that one.

The presentation and description of the items is what makes the book fun to read - come up with some good in-universe bullshit about why the items are great and hell yeah I'll read a hundred pages on gear.

Much depends on the level of detail of the system.

I can't see myself needing to have silverware broken down into serving spoon, teaspoon, desert spoon etc, but I think basic mess gear (cup, combination bowl / plate, and silverware for one person), deluxe mess gear (cup, plate, bowl, small pan, small pot and silverware for one person), 5 person camp kitchen (couple of pots, frying pan and cooking utensils for serving 1-5 people), 10 person camp kitchen etc is worthwhile for most games. If the information is well done, I'm good with several pages to a whole book of stuff. Genre of course plays a role as well, a stone age game has far fewer material needs than an advanced society or generic system.

Less is more because as Steven Mitchell pointed out, player analysis paralysis is an issue. However, I do like expensive gear that you can't buy initially, but need to adventure to gain.

Also, I want SETTING SPECIFIC gear.

Quote from: Cave Bear;1063451You gentlemen would obviously not buy a game with over one hundred pages of non-magical weapons, armors, and adventuring gear.

Shadowrun and Palladium called and would beg to differ on that point. heh-heh.

Some games actually need alot of pages devoted to equipment. Especially ones where the PCs ability may actually derive from their gear. Weapons, gadgets, vehicles, and so on. Very YMMV as others in similar settings get by with just whats in the base game and off you go!

But Shadowrun in particular put out quite a few supplements on just more guns n gadgets. One could argue that sometimes upwards of a half to a third of every palladium book and expansion is equipment.

I wonder how much those gear books are read vs. used at the table.

What's been your experience?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1063580I wonder how much those gear books are read vs. used at the table.

What's been your experience?

depends really.  

I have used many of them at the table and also some of it is useful for world-building stuff.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1063511Much depends on the level of detail of the system.

I can't see myself needing to have silverware broken down into serving spoon, teaspoon, desert spoon etc, but I think basic mess gear (cup, combination bowl / plate, and silverware for one person), deluxe mess gear (cup, plate, bowl, small pan, small pot and silverware for one person), 5 person camp kitchen (couple of pots, frying pan and cooking utensils for serving 1-5 people), 10 person camp kitchen etc is worthwhile for most games. If the information is well done, I'm good with several pages to a whole book of stuff. Genre of course plays a role as well, a stone age game has far fewer material needs than an advanced society or generic system.

Greetings!

Hi Toadmaster! Yeah, I agree with you, certainly. I don't think that *every* nuanced type of spoon needs to be included--yeah, having some level of abstraction is just fine. However, like with some of the extra detail you mentioned, I think a whole list of stuff can be differentiated by degrees of artistic beauty, functionality, quality, any special properties, and overall value. So, I suppose like some others have mentioned, several layers of detail isn't necessary--but if you DO need it--it sure is nice to be able to flip open a book, and say, yeah, you find this, and this, and this here. You also hear some rumours that this special shop in the city of Vanilla Tiger has this, and THAT.

I've had more than a few players--but also some girlfriends and their girlfriends--really put me to the wall. Hey! We're going shopping for the upcoming Winter Ball at the Baron's Palace. What do you mean when we go shopping, we find a "nice dress"? Yeah. On and on. Just basic, vague shit just is not good enough for them. They want *details* on all their dresses, and shoes, and jewelry, and perfume, and cosmetics, as well as the chess set they picked up for their lover, and a painting of an elephant at dawn for their retired, ageing father. Then, of course, Chrissy Bebop wants to find some *special* plate-mail for her boyfriend. Showing them the standard item list in a Player's Handbook gets me an eye-roll, and shrieks of

"Come on, SHARK! They gotta have some good stuff! We don't just want the normal, boring shit the average girl can find. Plus, we're rich adventurers, so we need to find the *elite* crafty people, not these wankers!"

Yeah. So, in my campaigns, I've had to devote considerable effort to developing an extensive listing of dozens of items--most of it non-magical--but cool, interesting shit that the girls will appreciate. Just like the stuff they are familiar with from the ancient and medieval times--they want Roman sex toys, African ivory doodads, Greek ceramics, French perfume, Egyptian sex oil, Persian shampoo, Germanic steel swords, and beautiful, colourful dresses made in Carthage. All that kind of stuff. Then thy also want the seasonal special Dwarven pipe tobacco, and the Elven incense, with the magical incense burner thingy to go with it.

A normal Player's Handbook list of gear and items...just isn't in the same league. LOL.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: tenbones;1063485The reason why I like gear books/lists is it says something about the conceits of the world at large and the assumptions of what and how people live. As a GM it's your job to moderate and emphasize/de-emphasize that gear and it's need.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1063531Also, I want SETTING SPECIFIC gear.

That's also a really good point.  One of the things that I was particularly struck by in the gear lists when I started reading through Talislanta stuff was that there were a lot of setting- and culture-specific weapons and armor, which made the items distinct even in cases where there may not have been any numerical, mechanical difference.

This also helps with the analysis paralysis mentioned by others.  If your character comes from a specific culture, then you really only have to look at that culture's equipment lists when selecting gear, rather than the entire list of everything in the world.

Quote from: nDervish;1063630That's also a really good point.  One of the things that I was particularly struck by in the gear lists when I started reading through Talislanta stuff was that there were a lot of setting- and culture-specific weapons and armor, which made the items distinct even in cases where there may not have been any numerical, mechanical difference.

This also helps with the analysis paralysis mentioned by others.  If your character comes from a specific culture, then you really only have to look at that culture's equipment lists when selecting gear, rather than the entire list of everything in the world.

That's a good point, though if there is no mechanical distinction between two cultures swords (for example), do we really need to call them different names (says the guy who is running OD&D with d6 damage for all weapons...)?

Burning Wheel does this, each character stock has a short equipment and property list, for the most part, there is one set of weapons and armor, but there are some distinctions between the stocks.

Of course even if two cultures have "sword", it could be a different price reflecting the scarcity (and thus prestige) of swords in one culture.

Frank

Normally I don't make players spend their money on their gear before I outfit them with what I think is appropriate for their character based on who they are, where they come from, what we've agreed upon in their background.

So they usually have a very basic and decent kit - anything else beyond that, they can buy *at* the location where we start. That keeps the list appropriate to the context of the game. It eliminates analysis paralysis because some things from the gear-list won't be available (depending on where we start) - and it will take the PC's actually RP-interaction to find and get the things they believe they want.

This way it's all kept in-game without people trying to crunch numbers on optimal possibilities because they'll probably have a close approximation to that based on their background, and everything else is left to roleplay.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1063580I wonder how much those gear books are read vs. used at the table.

What's been your experience?

A-lot. Really. A-lot. Especially the SR equipment books.

Though personally I think after a point it got a bit much. Or that they werent covering enough types of equipment.

Quote from: ffilz;1063663That's a good point, though if there is no mechanical distinction between two cultures swords (for example), do we really need to call them different names (says the guy who is running OD&D with d6 damage for all weapons...)?

Just because they're not mechanically different doesn't mean they aren't different.

The first example to my mind was a standard broadsword (looks like your average medieval sword) and a Za broadsword (a vicious curved blade with a jagged, flesh-tearing edge), which are identical aside from price in the master weapons table.  Aside from cosmetics (which can be important, since seeing someone carrying a Za weapon tells you a bit about them), the Za people have a tendency to kill you on sight if you're a non-Za carrying a Za blade, which is a fairly significant non-mechanical distinction.

However, the example is flawed because, when I went to double-check, I noticed in the description that wounds inflicted by a Za broadsword are twice as difficult to heal, so there is still a mechanical distinction after all...

Quote from: nDervish;1063870Just because they're not mechanically different doesn't mean they aren't different.

The first example to my mind was a standard broadsword (looks like your average medieval sword) and a Za broadsword (a vicious curved blade with a jagged, flesh-tearing edge), which are identical aside from price in the master weapons table.  Aside from cosmetics (which can be important, since seeing someone carrying a Za weapon tells you a bit about them), the Za people have a tendency to kill you on sight if you're a non-Za carrying a Za blade, which is a fairly significant non-mechanical distinction.

However, the example is flawed because, when I went to double-check, I noticed in the description that wounds inflicted by a Za broadsword are twice as difficult to heal, so there is still a mechanical distinction after all...

Well, I don't have too much of a problem if different cultures have different equipment lists, but I think that is best handled by a separate list for each culture. Then no one has to pore through pages and pages. Now of course out of culture stuff might be available, but that should be role played (or negotiated with the GM during chargen).

Quote from: SHARK;1063586Greetings!

Hi Toadmaster! Yeah, I agree with you, certainly. I don't think that *every* nuanced type of spoon needs to be included--yeah, having some level of abstraction is just fine. However, like with some of the extra detail you mentioned, I think a whole list of stuff can be differentiated by degrees of artistic beauty, functionality, quality, any special properties, and overall value. So, I suppose like some others have mentioned, several layers of detail isn't necessary--but if you DO need it--it sure is nice to be able to flip open a book, and say, yeah, you find this, and this, and this here. You also hear some rumours that this special shop in the city of Vanilla Tiger has this, and THAT.

I've had more than a few players--but also some girlfriends and their girlfriends--really put me to the wall. Hey! We're going shopping for the upcoming Winter Ball at the Baron's Palace. What do you mean when we go shopping, we find a "nice dress"? Yeah. On and on. Just basic, vague shit just is not good enough for them. They want *details* on all their dresses, and shoes, and jewelry, and perfume, and cosmetics, as well as the chess set they picked up for their lover, and a painting of an elephant at dawn for their retired, ageing father. Then, of course, Chrissy Bebop wants to find some *special* plate-mail for her boyfriend. Showing them the standard item list in a Player's Handbook gets me an eye-roll, and shrieks of

"Come on, SHARK! They gotta have some good stuff! We don't just want the normal, boring shit the average girl can find. Plus, we're rich adventurers, so we need to find the *elite* crafty people, not these wankers!"

Yeah. So, in my campaigns, I've had to devote considerable effort to developing an extensive listing of dozens of items--most of it non-magical--but cool, interesting shit that the girls will appreciate. Just like the stuff they are familiar with from the ancient and medieval times--they want Roman sex toys, African ivory doodads, Greek ceramics, French perfume, Egyptian sex oil, Persian shampoo, Germanic steel swords, and beautiful, colourful dresses made in Carthage. All that kind of stuff. Then thy also want the seasonal special Dwarven pipe tobacco, and the Elven incense, with the magical incense burner thingy to go with it.

A normal Player's Handbook list of gear and items...just isn't in the same league. LOL.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I don't recall ever having to get into that much detail, but a lot of games do involve expeditions and I've played with a couple groups that really get into outfitting the party with gear.

It is always nice when the GM does the old, you don't have that, let me see your character sheet and then being able to go yep, right there I do in fact have that item. So much nicer than "camping gear" where the GM can decide, it wouldn't include that.