Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1061732The crap style of '70s D&D adventure gaming will never die. It's growing, because fat lazy players are growing.

Hey, why all the hate?

Fat, lazy people are cool too; right?  

(I am one, by the way.)

Quote from: Larsdangly;1061731I'm often surprised how little most current gamers known about games besides D+D; that wasn't my experience of the community a long time ago when 1E was overwhelmingly dominant in the hobby, yet everyone knew about, and often played other things. It feels like a bit of a mono culture crop growing the middle of an old abandoned lot full of wild flowers. The new-ish 5E players I know don't seem particularly curious about other games, either. On the other hand, it is honestly a pretty solid fantasy roleplaying game. So, its not like they are all playing trash or something.

I agree, this is a concern, but I think 5e is being played in a good variety of ways.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1061732The crap style of '70s D&D adventure gaming will never die. It's growing, because fat lazy players are growing.

It's growing because 70's D&D adventure gaming continues to be fucking awesome.

Even for highly active skinny people.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1061751It's growing because 70's D&D adventure gaming continues to be fucking awesome.

Even for highly active skinny people.

Me and my Stonehell Dungeon players tend to be skinny, like most UK rpg players, and I certainly exercise every day. And the game is great fun!

Quote from: Toadmaster;1061725At the end he finally hit on what I was thinking the whole time. This is just a perspective issue, many here, myself included have been gaming longer than he has been alive.

He started with the relatively crunchy D&D 3E, lived through the apparently even crunchier(?) 4E and now sees a move towards a lighter system with 5E gaining ground over 3E / Pathfinder and similar rule heavy games.

Those who have been around a while have seen this before in the late 90s, early 2000s when rules lite and story games were the hot new things, and people were lamenting (or in some cases celebrating, always a few assholes) the death of the crunch heavy games that became popular in the 80s, early 1990s.

I agree with Toadmaster here. Perspective is the answer to most of these discussions. I started playing OD&D before they made monster minis, back when all you could buy were Romans and Vikings and other historical figures. We played a highly "wargame" style at first because that's all we knew, then evolved to a style without minis (what folks call "theater of the mind" nowadays, as if it's a new concept) Played through AD&D and 2E and so on, where games got progressively more complex, and have finally settled into 5E because that's what everyone at the game store plays.

What I find is that my style of play works fine in pretty much any rules set but my preferences lean towards simpler rules sets, so I like OD&D and AD&D and 5E a lot more than 3E and 4E but it's because of rules style and not play style. I can do a combat-heavy game in any rules set. I can do a social interaction game in any rules set. None of this is a function of the actual rules.

5E's Adventurer's League started out with modules which were all "three combat encounters and done" but some of the hardbacks got into questing in Barovia or social situations in Waterdeep. This doesn't mean that the combat situations (or the chances to use tactics on a battleboard) have gone away, but they have been supplemented with other options.

Heck, I'll bet I could run a fun afternoon one-shot RPG session using a chess set if I wanted because the base combat rules are in place but the pawns and bishops and rooks could socially interact in a role-play manner if desired.

Quote from: Razor 007;1061747Hey, why all the hate?

Fat, lazy people are cool too; right?  

(I am one, by the way.)

Please stop excluding us skinny, lazy people.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1061725Well I thought this was going to be about a shift to people talking with funny voices at the table instead of rolling dice. he is just talking rules heft.

At the end he finally hit on what I was thinking the whole time. This is just a perspective issue, many here, myself included have been gaming longer than he has been alive.

He started with the relatively crunchy D&D 3E, lived through the apparently even crunchier(?) 4E and now sees a move towards a lighter system with 5E gaining ground over 3E / Pathfinder and similar rule heavy games.

Sounds like he's a Denner, then. Or at least influenced. Trollman relentless flogs this idea that a true RPG has rules for every single thing it could comprehend, and if you do something that requires making something up or a ruling, then you are no longer playing an RPG; you are playing "magical tea party."

It's obviously a very stupid idea. Strangely, he doesn't seem to like GURPS.

If anything 5e is saving RPGs.

I agree with the Taking20 guy. Not only is there a dramatic increase in the people interested in D&D, but their interest is in crafting a unique personality and acting it out in the game. The mechanics are just a necessary part of the process, and not where the fun is found. Even 5E's relatively stripped-down mechanics are overwhelming for them, and they just roll dice when they're told and don't really engage with the mechanics. Their entire conception of what roleplaying is comes from streamers and liveplay shows.

Even a couple long-time gamers in my group who happily min-maxed 3.x and 4E now keenly get into character, motivation, and roleplaying. They're been watching Matt Colville and Critical Role, and want to participate in today's zeitgeist. And that's not mini-maxing, dungeon-looting, and combat tactics.

So loads of people are flocking to D&D today and they're flocking to D&D as its depicted in Critical Role and other actual play sources. And I do mean D&D - none of the dozen or more newbies I've played with in the last two years have any interest in any other RPGs.

And in my estimation, Critical Role has had a bigger impact on the game today than WotC and the mechanics of 5E.

I guess to me, if there is a zeitgeist change it's just a return to normalcy after 3e-era "I roll Diplomacy on the guard" as a substitute for talking in character. I guess I have seen some players more interested in their PC Backstory - and I started a thread on that here - and certainly there is little emphasis on Build optimisation outside the 3e-Grognards over on ENW. But most players do get to know the basic mechanics, most do enjoy combat and try to win.

Quote from: S'mon;1061710I didn't say it was better. I said it had a more balanced - more even - ratio between the three pillars. You apparently have some other definition of balance.

Quote from: S'mon;1061826I guess to me, if there is a zeitgeist change it's just a return to normalcy after 3e-era "I roll Diplomacy on the guard" as a substitute for talking in character. I guess I have seen some players more interested in their PC Backstory - and I started a thread on that here - and certainly there is little emphasis on Build optimisation outside the 3e-Grognards over on ENW. But most players do get to know the basic mechanics, most do enjoy combat and try to win.

I interpret "unbalanced" or "abnormal" as having negative connotations.

I think 5e is fine - but I also think that 3e and Pathfinder are fine. Both should be around, because both have people that like them.

Quote from: jhkim;1061845I interpret "unbalanced" or "abnormal" as having negative connotations.

I like 5e better than 4e. But I like 4e; it's just a combat-centric RPG.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1061781If anything 5e is saving RPGs.

From what?

It's not like if D&D was shut down by WotC on Hasbro's orders that roleplaying games would suddenly disappear.

Quote from: tenbones;1061850From what?

Ghosts.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1061779Please stop excluding us skinny, lazy people.

Hey, I do hard manual labor to earn a living and support my family; but when I'm at home, I'm a fat lazy person.