Quote from: jeff37923;1061156I'm tweaking jhkim's nose.

Oh, I figured it was sarcasm. I was attempting the same. Gives new meaning to the term "bottomfeeder", eh?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1061163Oh, I figured it was sarcasm. I was attempting the same. Gives new meaning to the term "bottomfeeder", eh?

OK, that made me laugh.

Quote from: Zalman;1061161My point is well-illustrated by the fact that a conversation regarding the use of X-cards has devolved into a discussion on the merits of various levels of rape descriptions. Get it? If we're arguing about when X-cards get used, we've already dismissed them in principle.

I'd suggest the reverse actually. TheRPGsite has an unhealthy (IMO) affinity for discussions about rape, but it's clearly not the only thing that could cause a player to start to not enjoy a game. But even if it was, the point is to alert the GM (or another player) as early as possible that the direction the game is taking is undesirable. That's a good thing, it gives the GM or player time to redirect / adjust / veil.

As for rats, the only game I think they are possibly integral to is WFRP. You think someone should be excluded from our hobby, D&D in particular, because of some trauma they suffered, likely as a child? Fuck that noise.

If a player had that averse a reaction to a game I was running, I'd want to find some way to accommodate the player. Of course I would. Because I'm not a heartless dick, and because I have fun when my players are having fun.

Do I think there should be some onus on the player to brief the GM in advance of things to avoid? Honestly, no. Too many ways that could go wrong.

And while I don't think I would promote the use of the X-card (or the egg-timer for that matter) in the way that the creator suggested, by making its use so prevalent that it was simply seen as part of the routine game mechanics, I do understand the argument. If there was a middle way, I'd be very interested in exploring that option.

Quote from: jeff37923;1061164OK, that made me laugh.

I gladly take that compliment, sir!

Motorskills, rape probably comes up so often as it’s a go-to social bludgeon that’s very much been used for nefarious purposes, especially recently. Rape is one of the worst things a person can endure and still be alive and that the very definition has been subverted for political gains, is abhorrent. Taking it from all angles a perfect issue for illustrating the complexities of things like the X-card and how messy things can get.

There’s a scene in The Office that wouldn’t fly nowadays where Kelly says “I was raped!” as an excuse for why she did something wrong. Michael mentions how she can’t keep using it as an excuse (I forget the exact quote), leading us to believe she’s done it before, if not several times. It’s funny in the show but when seen through the lense of current Leftist demagoguery, it’s a scary and unfunny thing that’s ruining lives.

This entire issue of X-cards should be summed up with, “We play games to have fun. Fun is subjective. Don’t be a dick”.

Another example of stupidity, this being in 2003: A fellow gamer’s girlfriend stops by to bring her boyfriend lunch. Cool. While on break another player describes a battle scene as “tight”, as in, “That fight was tight, man!”. She...very bitchily...scolds him for saying “tight” because, according to her, the word comes from 60s sexploitation films where “tight” means “rape”. My response was, “So, was it rape-tight?”. She loses it, I pretty much tell her to chill the fuck out and she leaves in a huff.

Today, I would be branded as a rape-apologist (or actual rapist) for making such a sarcastic response to an absolutely ignorant, rude statement. At worst, I was a jerk. The level of social inoculation needs to rise and soon or else the NPCs will glitch into the proverbial wall and ruin the game even more.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061166As for rats, the only game I think they are possibly integral to is WFRP. You think someone should be excluded from our hobby, D&D in particular, because of some trauma they suffered, likely as a child?

Have to admit, I laughed out loud at this one.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061166I'd suggest the reverse actually. TheRPGsite has an unhealthy (IMO) affinity for discussions about rape,

You keep clutching those pearls like that you'll break your necklace.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061166But even if it was, the point is to alert the GM (or another player) as early as possible that the direction the game is taking is undesirable.

Easy enough to do and something that has been done for years in the hobby. Be responsible and talk it over with the DM and/or group. You make it seem like the X_card is the only viable option.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061166As for rats, the only game I think they are possibly integral to is WFRP. You think someone should be excluded from our hobby, D&D in particular, because of some trauma they suffered, likely as a child? Fuck that noise.

I do not think he should be excluded from the hobby. He would not be welcome at my table. What do players think are the usual resident of abandoned dungeons and other such places unicorns and care bears.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061166If a player had that averse a reaction to a game I was running, I'd want to find some way to accommodate the player. Of course I would. Because I'm not a heartless dick, and because I have fun when my players are having fun.

That's why it's hard to have a discussion with you. Everyone who does things differently are made out to be jerks. I believe in a reasonable amount of accommodation. I'm not bending over backwards and neither will most groups to do so. If a compromise and accommodation can be made I will do it. If not the player is free to find another table.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061166Do I think there should be some onus on the player to brief the GM in advance of things to avoid? Honestly, no. Too many ways that could go wrong.

It kind of is on the player to tell the DM and the group. It worked well in most cases at least at my gaming table for years. No graphic descriptions of torture. Done. No descriptions of rape. Done. The X-card if anything makes the situation worse. The player has a problem. Is not obliged in anyway to even remotely tell the DM and group why it is a problem. WE are not mind-readers. Nor is a rpg table a session of Where Waldo with everyone else guessing what is wrong. Yet somehow talking like mature adults is more problematic

Quote from: Motorskills;1061166If there was a middle way, I'd be very interested in exploring that option.

Their is talking with the group and/or the DM. Again it worked many years before the existence of a X-Card for most if not all topics. It still does. Everything else to me at least seems a excuse to assume responsibility from doing so.

Quote from: Zalman;1061168Have to admit, I laughed out loud at this one.

Quote from: sureshot;1061193I do not think he should be excluded from the hobby. He would not be welcome at my table. What do players think are the usual resident of abandoned dungeons and other such places unicorns and care bears.

In case I wasn't clear (and I likely wasn't), my point is that players likely won't know the content of a particular scene / adventure / campaign before they are in the middle of it. That's almost always the reason we play RPGs in the first place - the excitement of the unknown unfolding in front of us as a group.

That's true for both GM-ed and GM-less games. It's also true when I am the DM, sure I know the plot, but I don't know what crazy shenanigans my players are going to pull this time. Ultimately while there are preventive tools that are very powerful, we also need tools for navigating discomfort that can are able to be applied in vivo.

It's not that I think people who don't like the X-card are jerks. I've got one foot in that camp myself, as I've said above, indeed in the post that you quoted.

My issue with [your] position Sureshot is that you decided that the solutions that you have successfully used in your situations must surely apply universally. I - and others in this thread - have shown that simply isn't true.  

But even if it was, let's be honest here, the efficacy of the tool is not your real objection.

ISTM that your problem is with the type of person that came up with the tool - presumably because his experiences of using [your] solutions proved to be inadequately effective for his own games - and with the type of person that might benefit from the tool.

You don't like the people.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061194In case I wasn't clear (and I likely wasn't), my point is that players likely won't know the content of a particular scene / adventure / campaign before they are in the middle of it. That's almost always the reason we play RPGs in the first place - the excitement of the unknown unfolding in front of us as a group.

I will concede that if the person playing is new to rpgs they may not know what many fantasy locales look or what animals inhabit them. Experienced players have some kind of idea. Dungeons I figure what have rats among other creatures. Forests should have deer, owls etc. It's not to say they will always be the same yet unless a DM makes a huge design change usually many fantasy locales are the same imo.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061194That's true for both GM-ed and GM-less games. It's also true when I am the DM, sure I know the plot, but I don't know what crazy shenanigans my players are going to pull this time. Ultimately while there are preventive tools that are very powerful, we also need tools for navigating discomfort that can are able to be applied in vivo.

I'm not totally against the X-card. As they are currently designed I find them too disruptive at average table. A player can use them. They bring the game to a complete halt. Without the player telling the DM and the rest of the table why. If they revise the guidelines to include one that a player needs to tell the reason behind the use of the card. My stance on them will change. Otherwise as I said too disruptive. The average player at the table will not imo take kindly to the campaign stopping every time a X-card is used without the reason behind it's use imo.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061194My issue with [your] position Sureshot is that you decided that the solutions that you have successfully used in your situations must surely apply universally. I - and others in this thread - have shown that simply isn't true.  

I concede that not every topic can be brought up with the entire table. One HAS to tell the DM if they don't want to see something at the game table. Your one to talk though. It seems only X-cards are the solution to you. Talking like mature adults is no even an option.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061194But even if it was, let's be honest here, the efficacy of the tool is not your real objection.

The very nature of the X-card while useful is too broad and too disruptive imo. You may play with absolute paragons of virtue. I play with real people and we are flawed. An X-card every two seconds would get the person(s) using them ejected from most tables. Used when it's absolutely needed are a good tool. As it is a tool that stops play continually for no reason will never become a accepted method at many tables. Not unless it's passed into law or forced on a group.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061194ISTM that your problem is with the type of person that came up with the tool - presumably because his experiences of using [your] solutions proved to be inadequately effective for his own games - and with the type of person that might benefit from the tool.

My solution is talking to the person either in private or public. if you don't have the stones to do so is not my problem. Something that is told to me in confidence I don't share with the group. I will not force anyone to play or divulge anything they do not want to do. I will reasonably make a accommodation to a player. I also am a majority rules kind of person. If the rest of the group ha no problems with rats in dungeons the rats will be in the dungeons.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061194You don't like the people.

And your back to being a disingenuous fuck. Not doing things the Motorskills way = not liking the people. You realize making a accommodation for a player is a choice I am under no obligation to do so. I can easily say to find another table. i work with my players to try and work and resolve and make sure they are comfortable at the table. I do not always succeed. Neither am I forced to make it succeed.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1061153I agree wholeheartedly with the way you handle things but have to ask: Why is the mindflayer going up the butt?! Seems rather nasty way to get to dinner.

Well, when you have to feed on people who's heads are so far up their own asses, you have to adapt.

Quote from: sureshot;1061199And your back to being a disingenuous fuck. Not doing things the Motorskills way = not liking the people.

I'm taking this from your many posts over many weeks and months. You tell me I'm wrong - and I'd like to be - but your rhetoric doesn't match. OMMV.

Your other points look interesting, I need to read them properly first.

Hi. First time poster here. Nice to meet everyone. I've lurked for a while but decided to take the plunge and post, simply because...I tried GMing a game where I used the X card. I have first-hand experience with it.

I'm honestly not even sure who this card is supposed to benefit. It didn't benefit anyone in my gaming group.

It ruined my game. It ruined it for literally everyone, including the person who used the X card. The reason it did that? Because the X Card mentions when using it: "You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why"

Now, I don't try to steamroll my players or make them participate in content they don't want. I never do that. But....yes. Explanations matter. It does matter why. I want to know if I did something that upset a player. I cannot fix what I am not told directly about.

I always give my players a rundown of any mature or complicated topics that could be controversial before the game starts. If they don't like a topic, I encourage them to tell me before a game session. Or after. Or hell they can throw a fucking pretzel and me and be like "don't include you asshole, it's upsetting" during the game session, I don't care.

I've gotten pretty good at telling players what might be included without spoiling the adventure. Personally, I think players need to be mature enough to have dialogues when uncomfortable. This is a hobby that inherently requires some form of socialization; if a person can't do that when they run into an issue, that screws with me. If they get so traumatized or can't handle something that they must stop the entire game and cannot tell me why, that's....a problem. I can't game that way. It doesn't mean they aren't welcome at my table, but in the case of the X card person in my group, I asked them after the game session if they were willing to explain why they held up the card since it was unclear what topic I'd talked about upset them, and they literally said "I don't have to say."

But another part of the text for X Card instructions was "If you aren't sure what was X-Carded, call for a break and talk with the person in private." I wasn't sure. I tried to follow this direction. But this literally contradicts what the X card user gets told because they are getting told they don't have to say.

Okay, fine. No player has to tell me jack shit. But if they don't tell me, I can't fix the issue, and they might run into the same problem-topic again. I can't just ban every single possible thing I think might have been what they held up the X card for. I explained my dilemma and asked them if they could help me work to a solution, and the person just plain did not want to talk about it.

Which is fine, but I had to ask them to excuse themselves from my group until they felt ready to communicate with me in a healthy way. I need to trust people at my table to be functioning adults. I'm sorry if they've been through something traumatic or whatever. I'm not a dick; I don't want to make 'em deal with shit that makes 'em have like, flashbacks or something. But I can't read fucking minds. If someone is currently so incapacitated that they are invoking the 'I don't have to explain' part of the X card, I have no idea how I am supposed to progress the game from there without screwing it up. So I couldn't progress the game because I didn't know the reason they held up the card (it could have been violence, it could have been a gore description, it could have been something I never even thought about).

I told the group this and asked for solutions. No one could think of what to do from there, because the scene was literally the 'big bad evil guy' reveal, and there was no way to skip it. I couldn't edit it if I didn't know what to edit. And the X-card player did not want to leave the table, claiming that use of the X card meant that it was supposed to help me to help them avoid a trigger.

They eventually excused themselves from the group altogether. They know there's no hard feelings, but they also know they are welcome back whenever they feel comfortable talking to me about whatever content was the problem. My other players are still salty it ruined the session, though they are trying to be nice about it. This happened about a month ago.

At the end of the day, all I want as a GM is for my players to be up front and direct with me. I do not think it is unreasonable to require someone actually talk to me if they are having a problem rather than just X card at me vaguely.

X card: interesting in theory. Rubbish in practice. Actual healthy communication is much better than just shutting shit down. The X card just essentially punishes the whole group at times.

Well said and seconded Forge and welcome to the forum.

Welcome to the forum, Forge. You make one Hell of a good entrance.

Quote from: sureshot;1061210Well said and seconded Forge and welcome to the forum.

Thank you very much!

Quote from: jeff37923;1061212Welcome to the forum, Forge. You make one Hell of a good entrance.

Thanks! I'd been thinking about posting here for a long time and finally felt like today was just the right day since some topics here caught my attention, like the X-card thread here today since I had experience with it.

(Plus, a bit off-topic, but I have been getting more interested in OSR products and this seems like a good place to talk about OSR games)