It sounds to me like they want to play Palladium's Nightspawn (renamed to Nightbane) game.

The OP's collection of "non-human freaks and wanting to use dark powers for good" sounds like every Star Wars group I've seen since 2005. At least they kept the heroism though.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1059191So, you remember those RPGA fucksticks from back in the day? ... yeah, that, turned up to eleven. Now with Nanny rules to prevent social consequences.

So all of their fuckstick rage is sublimated into murdering all NPCs that move, because nothing about setting remotely matters anymore, other than glomming on new ability cards onto your PC deck. And now you know! Go Joe!

From SHARK's posts, they don't appear to be angry; they're laughing and having a good time. From the AL point of view, the DM should be stopping this (the players are all supposed to be cooperating, even with differing factions and alignments).

I think there have been issues with AL. Originally, through maybe season 5 (Storm King's Thunder), the DM had no discretion to award XP for things outside of combat; we worked around this by a generous interpretation of defeating an opponent, or by rewarding role-playing with subsequent easier fights that would generate more XP. Beyond XP, in most cases, players are more likely to get magic items or treasure by looting defeated opponents, so players have incentive to pursue combat effectiveness. I would have been much happier with AL modules if story awards, especially where granted by NPC choice rather than successful combat, had been more significant than loot. Most of the prepared material does not provide for players to fail from a lack of non-combat actions or abilities, but insufficient combat ability may prevent the party's success, so another incentive to improve combat effectiveness. But, organized play or not, any RPG (as opposed to war games) really depends on the cooperation of the people at the table.

Note also that, for good or ill, AL has changed significantly with this season. XP is no longer calculated, but follows from the number of hours of play and from completing the adventure objectives. Treasure points are awarded at the same rate, so murderhobos get no additional treasure. Magic items are available to any character to buy with treasure points; each season has a list of magic items available automatically, and characters can get access to other items as a result of adventures. I have mixed feelings about these changes (e.g., wizards now have a hard time accumulating additional spells, since they have to spend treasure points on the cost of copying spells to their spell books), but I think they are intended to promote role-playing and probably achieve at least some of that. (I may be off on some of the details, which have changed since the original announcement; I've depended on other DMs I play with to track the specifics for our games, and only just started running for the first time last week.)

In eight hours of play of the 2018 D&D Open at a recent convention, we rolled initiative maybe two or three times, and the player characters did not kill any opponents. I've started running Dragon Heist, which is a similar style of adventure, for a small table; it lays out the Code Legal with crimes and penalties listed, and it's for lower level characters, so it's less murderhobo friendly. The other campaign book coming out soon sounds more like dungeon crawl territory, though.

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Some possible solutions for SHARK to consider:

• try talking to the DM alone about the issues (pointing out that this is not being run according to AL rules)
• try talking to the players at the start of the session, to get them on board with the idea of completing the adventure objectives and maybe role-playing
• play at a different table  (I'm guessing there's only one table running in this store, though)
• talk to the game store about the situation, or to an AL organizer, to support either of the following two goals:

[LIST=A]

• having them talk to the DM about remedying the situation
• getting another table going, being the DM if necessary (it would be helpful if the store or AL organizer could supply AL-approved modules for whoever is the DM) (since the existing table is too large, splitting it seems appropriate)

• start a table of retro D&D running a version you like
• play somewhere else

Or you can just complain in online forums about the situation.

Quote from: SHARK;1059211"How can these morons act like this? They hurt the party's mission; their characters do things that are blatantly chaotic and evil; these morons do things often that are morally offensive and provocative--and of course, by the house rules, we can't socially correct these people *in character* or out-of-character; thus, it falls on the DM to correct them, or otherwise bring to their attention how needlessly abrasive their character's behavior is--and yet, does he bother to do any of this? NOPE. He just sits there and laughs right along with them."

That does bother me, philosophically. Life has consequences--and yet, many of these players can literally do whatever they want--no matter how evil, no matter how dishonourable--and we cannot say anything or do anything to correct them, to show them how what they have done is wrong. Or, just outright punish them for being idiots. They can do whatever they want, and don't have to experience any consequences for their behavior--from us, or the DM.

Yeah, it's an environment calculated to enable horrible behavior in a world that doesn't even react. I too would want both PCs and NPCs to react to murderous PC behavior. Basically they are villains with meta-protection from the house rules and from the DM. Seems like sick nonsense to me.

And I say this as someone who has run campaigns designed to feature murderous PCs... but never by preventing sane non-murderous PCs from reacting freely to them, and not by protecting them from appropriate reactions from NPCs.

Quote from: SHARK;1059211That does bother me, philosophically. Life has consequences--and yet, many of these players can literally do whatever they want--no matter how evil, no matter how dishonourable--and we cannot say anything or do anything to correct them, to show them how what they have done is wrong. Or, just outright punish them for being idiots. They can do whatever they want, and don't have to experience any consequences for their behavior--from us, or the DM.

Sorry, you lost me there.

This is a game played for entertainment. There's no moral imperative that people be punished for evil done in game. Sometimes it can be fun to just drink some beer and kill things, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not usually my cup of tea, but I'm not going to judge people for what their characters do.

Quote from: jhkim;1059294Sorry, you lost me there.

This is a game played for entertainment. There's no moral imperative that people be punished for evil done in game. Sometimes it can be fun to just drink some beer and kill things, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not usually my cup of tea, but I'm not going to judge people for what their characters do.

He's talking about the PCs not experiencing in-world consequences for what their PCs do. Basically getting to play Murderworld. I think it's a reasonable complaint.

Quote from: rawma;1059268I think there have been issues with AL. Originally, through maybe season 5 (Storm King's Thunder), the DM had no discretion to award XP for things outside of combat;

It was Season 7 that this reared it's ugly head.  The amount of NOTHING that happens in between the 'dungeons' of Tomb of Annihilation meant no one got XP without Curse of Strahd style encounter padding as every 1/4 mile hex HAD to have some sort of combat encounter, otherwise no one would have gotten past level 5 by the end of the book.  And players were meant to start at level 3.

Quote from: Skarg;1059281Yeah, it's an environment calculated to enable horrible behavior in a world that doesn't even react. I too would want both PCs and NPCs to react to murderous PC behavior. Basically they are villains with meta-protection from the house rules and from the DM. Seems like sick nonsense to me.

And I say this as someone who has run campaigns designed to feature murderous PCs... but never by preventing sane non-murderous PCs from reacting freely to them, and not by protecting them from appropriate reactions from NPCs.

Greetings!

Damn, Skarg! Right on, brother! You nailed it exactly. There's organizational *policy* or *philosophy* that insidiously or actually overtly reaches into the game world environment and dictates what people--the characters--can and cannot do.

Here is one scenario:

The group has been traveling through the jungles of Chult. We discover a wrecked Hulruaan Flying Ship, being overrun by savage ape-creatures. We hear humans screaming as they are being ripped apart and eaten. We quickly make our way up through these huge trees, and onto the deck of the Halruaan ship, and proceed to engage the savage ape-creatures. We defeat the evil ape-creatures, and start to search the ship, for treasure, equipment, or survivors. Deeper inside the ship, we find two survivors--an older, bearded man that is wounded, and an attractive woman, obviously frightened, demoralised and in despair. Both humans are ragged and dirty in appeance though, looking awful. I persuaded the two humans to trust us, and come out of their hiding. My character told them, "Fear not, Woman. We are here to help you! The evil beasts have been slain! Come up with us, and we may help you." We get the woman and man up out on the deck, and begin asking them a few questions. My friend, the party's only Cleric, manages to heal the older man, unfortunately only to 1 HP. Still, the older man is now stabilized, safe, and not bleeding to death. My character hands the woman a skin of water, and begins to befriend the woman, as the older man rests, also eating slowly and drinking some fresh, cold water.

One of the other party members was trying to hunt by shooting a boar or something with his bow. He sought to climb down one of the land ropes hanging from the ship, caught high up in these giant trees. The character is weak and clumsy, and fucked up and fell to the bottom, damn near dying. Geesus. Another player manages to climb down and tie the rope to the wounded moron, in hopes of pulling him back up to the ship, where the rest of the party is. My character, a Barbarian Human, happens to be the strongest member of the party, with a 20 Strength, so, they yell for me to help them, because they can't pull numbnuts back up to the ship. So, I politely excuse myself from trying to help the woman, and learn more about them, and go over to help my idiot party member. The party cleric goes with me, because he's large and strong as well, to lend a hand to save numbnuts. The DM tells us we can hear savage growling coming from the jungle below, and movement through the foliage. Great, something evil and hungry is going to soon pounce on numbnuts down there and eat him. We pull Numbnuts up from below, and save him from being eaten. Our Cleric uses I think his last healing spell to help the member that fell off the ship.

We get back over to the two humans, looking forward to learning all we can. In truth, we have been traveling for months in the wilderness, and seldom meet anyone or anything that is friendly. No towns, few supplies, no resources of civilization, so in truth, there are many ways that we, as a party, need help as well. Knowledge, counsel, supplies, good intel of the land and what's going on, local resources, all kinds of things. So, a friendly person willing to help us and be our ally is a much, much needed asset.

We arrive back, to see the fucking Tiefling standing behind the old bearded man, enjoying his food. The Tiefling proceeds to cut the older man's throat from behind, killing him instantly. The woman screams, and the Tiefling siezes her, and swiftly plunges his shortsword into her belly, several times, in and out in a savage blur. The woman collapses, blood gushing from her belly, and she dies. The Tiefling laughs maniacally in triumph. (The Tiefling player, smiles proudly at the table, and says emphatically, "I'm an Assassin, Bro. It's what I do. I enjoy killing people." He then laughs smugly.

My character wanted to run the fucker through with my Greatsword right there, on the spot. Of course, we can't do that. I sat there with my mouth open in shock. My friend, the party Cleric, he just looked at me grimly. I could see his whole face tighten in rage. He was pissed as all fuck. I just looked at the fucking Tiefling's player, and told him "I can't believe you just fucking did that. Fucking unbelievable."

The rest of the party didn't do anything to stop the Tiefling or seek to intervene in any way. In fact, they just giggled themselves, smiling and approving the Tiefling. The DM was even smiling.

My friend didn't find this episode *funny* in any way. I didn't think it was *funny* either. I was also disgusted at what the party just lost, meta-game info wise, all because the Tiefling is a fucking evil fuckstick. IN CHARACTER, my character was very angry for us losing a potential friends and allies, but also because I, and the cleric, made the woman trust us and have faith in us that we were here to help them and befriend them. Being betrayed like that, IN GAME, being shamed like that, IN GAME, being made to look like an evil, dishonorable savage IN GAME is not going to go over well with at least two human barbarians that pride themselves on a harsh code of honor, and is firmly committed against evil.

As a PLAYER, out of character, this was not fun. It was not enjoyable feeling like the party's goals in pursuing our mission--for many weeks now--is so often fucked in the ass by jackass behavior and actions done by fucking morons like the Tiefling. The Party suffered a huge loss in knowledge here--but also in Honor and Dignitas--that actually could have helped us greatly in our missions--sadly, however, the rest of the party is blissfully unaware or unconscious of this entirely, and doesn't give a damn anyways. They just laugh and giggle stupidly.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Dude, drop out of that AL group or lose your sanity.

After reading that, I'm pretty sure that the assholes in AL are getting their jollies at you and your friend's expense. Fuck them, don't let them get away with it. Drop out of the group.

EDIT: Or if you feel like some payback, engage in a Total Party Kill before exiting.

I agree with jeff37923 - it sounds like you should just drop out and not play with these guys. It sounds like there's no common ground for you to have fun with them.

What I disagree with is the idea that there is some sort of objective, real-world moral wrong just for playing stupid evil. It's possible that these players really are assholes in real life, but what makes them assholes isn't what their characters do. I've had various play of casual games where the PCs were poor-impulse-control psychos, from Paranoia to Fiasco and other games. I've had fun getting my character shot in the head by another player for no good reason.

The thing to do is to step out of game and say "I'm not having fun with this" and explain what you're looking for and what you don't like. I suspect that there's no common ground, but if so, just talk about it out-of-game and drop out. Don't burst a blood vessel fuming about what happens in the game.

OK, that example (party tiefling assassin murdering helpless Halruaa victims you have saved on an airship for no benefit and active hurt to the party) is technically AL ILLEGAL. You are allowed Lawful Evil only among two factions, and ALL players are barred from Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil. If at any time a PC's actions shift into these banned alingments their PCs are turned into NPCs and no longer legal for AL play.

Here is where the nanny rules come in: you could have called on the GM to call that table griefing, to have that retconned, AND have that player get a warning. If not, you could call  AL regional reps to complain and possibly have that GM written up. The GM is perfectly within his right to even shift PC alignment and make that homicidal tiefling assassin an illegal alignment and thus an illegal AL PC. Unfortunately the nanny rules prevents intra-party "discipline," which quickly devolves into griefing vendettas in practice.

Now, in practice... a lot of that shit is being metagamed by fucksticks in all levels of Org Play, in every form throughout the known universe for all types of RPG games. You are merely the odd ones out in an insular trollolol club, and are being hazed into initiation of their sublimated (sexually frustrated?) rage. Do you want to relive adolesence, or move on with your life?

If you must stay there a few sessions more, don't really help the party, find out who's socially cool, (or at least sane,) and try to poach them for a home game you will start up later.

Another issue here is the MINMAX mentality, which is a big factor in humans not being so common. Nowadays, a league player types in "what's the best XXXX" into Google, reads a few threads, and just follows that. It wouldn't surprise me to see an AL table with multiple characters who are clones of each other, right down to equipment.

But you're not going to get role playing there, just maximum DPS or whatever.

Another issue is teenage boys frequently just really enjoy being shitheads.

QuoteAnother issue here is the MINMAX mentality, which is a big factor in humans not being so common.

What's funny +1 to all is so good I have hard time not picking human. 16/16/14/12/10/9 is such a good starting array. Really depends on how the table is run, I guess. 14/14/14/14/13/12  is also way better than the dumb internet subcultures understand.

1. Playing AL

2. Not expecting a complete shitshow

Organized play is for people who lack friends. Most of reasons someone lacks friends are unflattering.

While I disagree about including non-human characters. I say leave the group as the players seem to lack the maturity imo to play a serious game. I can tell you Paladin or no if any PC did that as a player or DM...the first I would kill or try to restrain the pc. As a DM any town they were in depending on how popular the npc killed off was the pc(s) would be in big trouble.