Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537Yes, it does. You can kiss goodnight to the hugely increased player base we got from D&D 5th (big parallel with 3e there) and the associated products that have spawned from it. That includes the oft-maligned series of actual play vids (the biggest being Critical Role, of course), which regardless of how you feel, has got even more people playing it than the books and marketing itself ever could by itself. The only other series that could ever claim to bring in people like that was World of Darkness in the 90s.

And to this I say - I'm okay with that. *I* have lost players, good players, because of the current politically-correct slant in D&D where I've picked up a special snowflake player that was SJW/SJW-leaning get triggered at my table. (Literally calling another player a racist because he was playing a prejudiced-elf). Players that *can't* seem to understand the basic point of roleplaying as a game, vs. some form of political expression of their identity.

I don't need another minefield of personality-disorders and delusional thinking to wade through to find new players. More asshats makes it harder.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537The rest of the hobby doesn't make shit and doesn't bring in shit. This has been true since the 90s -- even into the 80s -- and it's even truer today after the catastrophic fallout from the 00s. Hasbro doesn't make any real money of the brand -- and just think, if they don't, the rest of the hobby sure as shit don't.

I've paid for quite a few luxuries for myself doing game design. Will it ever replace my lucrative dayjob? Nope. But then I've never really tried to either. Sorry, I'm going to disagree with you here. Most of the systems that exist now will retain their base outside of D&D if it, the brand, sank. Would the pie shrink? sure, and it would probably impact other systems in the long-term, but I'd wager a lot of non-D&D systems that are popular have very sustainable, albeit much smaller, populaces. I'm not convinced the Internet wouldn't serve as a catalyst that will continue to bring in new players to the hobby if D&D died. I'll grant you though that it would be diminished. But I don't think it's the end of the hobby by any stretch.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537Now this is not directed at you trechriron and lynn but the gaming populace in general: never ever be so arrogant as to think this hobby isn't built on and fundamentally supported by D&D. Digital publishing is just one more avenue of distribution and its highly convenient which is why its done so well - but without product (and well-known product) these sites and the rest of the hobby dies.

Exactly. D&D is merely a catalyst to get people into gaming. But that cat is out of the bag. The internet will sustain the RPG cottage industry at lower levels forever.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1057537You can play in your gamer dungeons all you want and ignore the rest of the hobby -- and while you do, it will collapse and we'll be the last set of generations to enjoy it. That is the stark truth.

Without D&D? Hardly. Tell that to the mass of gamers that don't play D&D at all. The Internet will continue to connect people, and they will discover roleplaying with/without D&D there. Would the loss of D&D impact that transfusion of new players? I don't think so for two good reasons:

1) D&D as a brand will never die. It might get dropped by Hasbro, but someone would rise up to gobble it up.
2) We've hit a saturation point in gaming where there are always crazy people that are obsessed with running and playing these games. It might lose cache created by the current "nerd-chic" that grants Geek-Bonafides for playing - but imo those people aren't Real Scottish Gamers as we understand it anyhow. Those people aren't the long-term players that really dig deep into this hobby. Those people are *us* and they're not going away. If D&D dropped out... the "fad" portion of the fanbase would diminish, it would hold onto the people that got their meathooks into it - and that's no different than any other popular form of entertainment.

It could be we've hit the TTRPG-nadir... and it would/will settle back down. But consider this... imagine if D&D were the game owned by a company that made it everything we wanted it to be? Imagine how much *better* the community would be.

Quote from: tenbones;1057613And to this I say - I'm okay with that. *I* have lost players, good players, because of the current politically-correct slant in D&D where I've picked up a special snowflake player that was SJW/SJW-leaning get triggered at my table. (Literally calling another player a racist because he was playing a prejudiced-elf). Players that can seem to understand the basic point of roleplaying as a game, vs. some form of political expression of their identity.

I dunno'.  I think it's a case-by-case matter.  Player A likes pretending to be racist.  Player B likes pretending to be opposite gender.  Player C likes pretending to be a black guy.  In some cases I'm sure it's just the appeal of being a character who's different, in other cases it's some sort of personal fantasy to -be- that character.  Likewise, I've seen players take offense at each of these differences, I -think- because they really can't properly separate the other person's character from the player.  

Yes, it's a crazy kind of crazy.

Quote from: tenbones;1057613The internet will sustain the RPG cottage industry at lower levels forever.

Exactly.  And with PDF piracy, people will always be spreading stuff after the PDF renter stores have closed down.

Quote from: tenbones;1057613It could be we've hit the TTRPG-nadir... and it would/will settle back down. But consider this... imagine if D&D were the game owned by a company that made it everything we wanted it to be? Imagine how much *better* the community would be.

Now we just have to agree on what "we" want.  

Quote from: tenbones;1057613*I* have lost players, good players, because of the current politically-correct slant in D&D where I've picked up a special snowflake player that was SJW/SJW-leaning get triggered at my table. (Literally calling another player a racist because he was playing a prejudiced-elf). Players that can seem to understand the basic point of roleplaying as a game, vs. some form of political expression of their identity.

This is the heart of the matter really. Because if you truly believe RPGs reflect or influence political attitudes to this extent, then you'll see any negative representation as a genuine threat, and a willful attack once you inform the player of the 'problem'. People like this don't see the difference between representing something and encouraging something, which means anything falling under their rubric must ultimately be modified until it reflects their values, and anyone playing it 'wrong' must be expelled from the community.

This is why they're so eager to control communications channels and implement codes of conduct.

But I digress.

Quote from: tenbones;10576131) D&D as a brand will never die. It might get dropped by Hasbro, but someone would rise up to gobble it up.

For proof of this, see D&D 4E and the meteoric rise of Pathfinder.

Quote from: jeff37923;1057637For proof of this, see D&D 4E and the meteoric rise of Pathfinder.

Agreed. See also D&D 5e, and the gradual-until-sudden collapse of Paizo.

The current Nerd-Chic is doomed, like any fad. Our hobby will shrink back down, but won't vanish. People will move from Nerd-Chic to some other /Chic subculture and leave gaming behind to those who love what the hobby offers. And that's okay.

As I've mentioned numerous times, the BEST gaming conventions I've attended are under 500 people. Much like Sparta, you only need 300 to have a rocking weekend that keeps the event in the hands of hobbyists instead of the event becoming a grinding 2nd job.

AKA, we don't need the WotCs or GenCons. We can have an awesome hobby with only people doing what they love just for the fun of it and maybe some beer money.

Quote from: san dee jota;1057622Now we just have to agree on what "we" want.  

Magic ponies, infinite wishes and lasagna!

The only 5e products I have any interest in beyond the core are supplements like Xanathar's or Volo's. I did get Curse of Strahd and I'm loving it, but none of the other adventures interested me before (other than maybe Tales from the Yawning Portal, since it's a bunch of converted classics) and they especially don't now. Volo's, Mordenkainen's, and TftYP are still on my list to pick up but after that I'm probably going to call it there.

I never bought anything from Paizo, nor do I intend to. Never really liked 3.X, too fiddly. The proliferation of feats and special classes encourages that "can't do it if you don't have rules for it" mindset way too much.

Quote from: GodotIsWaiting4U;1057661The only 5e products I have any interest in beyond the core are supplements like Xanathar's or Volo's. I did get Curse of Strahd and I'm loving it, but none of the other adventures interested me before (other than maybe Tales from the Yawning Portal, since it's a bunch of converted classics) and they especially don't now. Volo's, Mordenkainen's, and TftYP are still on my list to pick up but after that I'm probably going to call it there.

So you didn't like Sword Coast? (because I think you may have listed every other 5e D&D book)

Quote from: GodotIsWaiting4U;1057661none of the other adventures interested me before (other than maybe Tales from the Yawning Portal, since it's a bunch of converted classics

If you have the originals, don't bother. The 'conversion' is barely there at all.

I only game with friends so it probably wouldn't effect me at all. Since I enjoy the 5e ruleset I'd probably still buy their products.