Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1056254Yep. Don't force a story onto the players. Just give your NPCs their own goals, and role-play them as if they're in a sandbox that you'll be adding the PCs into. Everything else is character-driven after that. As a Referee, you decide when and what types of task checks will be needed to roll for. The "stories" will reveal themselves at the end of each session.

That's how I've been running for the past 33 years.  I've been told I'm doing it wrong for almost as long, but in my experience (purely anecdotal) some of the best games I've played (not ran) have also been run this way.

Quote from: Itachi;1056255Emphasis mine. But if you already have those elements settled, isn't the plot of adventure pre-planned in a way?

Starting conditions are only 'plot' in the weakest sense.

I'm not big into formal investigation RPGs, but I do like it when mysteries arise naturally in play and players investigate using their own brains combined with PC powers.

I think investigation fiction tends to be very character centric - both the protagonist(s) (>PCs) and the people they interview (>NPCs). Not sure why detective RPGs centre on trails of clues and pre-written scenes, it looks to me like a very cargo cult approach to the genre.

I believe firmly in uncertainty in setting design.

I especially like rumors and legends, especially how the game of Telephone (or Chinese Whispers in the UK) twists facts over time so there may be a kernel of truth that must be sussed out to determine what the reality might be.

And sometimes, the truth is lost in the mists of time.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1056254Yep. Don't force a story onto the players. Just give your NPCs their own goals, and role-play them as if they're in a sandbox that you'll be adding the PCs into. Everything else is character-driven after that. As a Referee, you decide when and what types of task checks will be needed to roll for. The "stories" will reveal themselves at the end of each session.

Well said and Damn Good Advice.

(Should someone be checking the temperature in Hell about now? )

I usually adopt these kinds of legends when present. I guess I never considered it before. This legend is beautiful! Very romantic. :-D

I think it's important that as the GM YOU know what happened.  But the Players need not ever find out the truth.

Quote from: S'mon;1056296Starting conditions are only 'plot' in the weakest sense.

I'm not big into formal investigation RPGs, but I do like it when mysteries arise naturally in play and players investigate using their own brains combined with PC powers.

I think investigation fiction tends to be very character centric - both the protagonist(s) (>PCs) and the people they interview (>NPCs). Not sure why detective RPGs centre on trails of clues and pre-written scenes, it looks to me like a very cargo cult approach to the genre.

I think it's less about emulating genre and more about that being one of the emergent structures that really work well for rpgs.

Quote from: TJS;1056819I think it's less about emulating genre and more about that being one of the emergent structures that really work well for rpgs.

Linear trails of pre-written scenes linked by clues work really well in RPGs? My mileage varies.

In my DCC campaign, there's TONS of insane stuff that looks utterly crazy and like it makes no sense. In some occasions, the PCs find out that something does in fact have a reason for existing or being the way it is; and now they get that anything that they don't know the reason for still has a reason that I know. That's very important, and in some ways even MORE important for a successful Gonzo setting than for a setting that has more obvious sense to it.

Quote from: S'mon;1056296Starting conditions are only 'plot' in the weakest sense.

I'm not big into formal investigation RPGs, but I do like it when mysteries arise naturally in play and players investigate using their own brains combined with PC powers.

I think investigation fiction tends to be very character centric - both the protagonist(s) (>PCs) and the people they interview (>NPCs). Not sure why detective RPGs centre on trails of clues and pre-written scenes, it looks to me like a very cargo cult approach to the genre.

I also prefer when mysteries or heists come up in mid of a sandbox, because this usually means the players can approach it loosely/how they see fit, or simply drop it altogether, and whatever the outcome it simply affects the related entities or factions in the sandbox framework and move on.

BUT this is not what happens in dedicated investigative or heist games. Ie: both CoC and Shadowrun have clear advice on how to plan and structure their adventures and in both this means heavily scripted plots, sometimes even whole scenes. And in my experience the very audience expect a more meticulously planned story from these games. That's the reason I find these games are usually more prone to railroads than other styles of games.

Now, if you never play those dedicated games, that's fair. But you can't dismiss they comprehend the most representative stances of their styles and will be the assumed benchmark when the matter comes up.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1057160In my DCC campaign, there's TONS of insane stuff that looks utterly crazy and like it makes no sense. In some occasions, the PCs find out that something does in fact have a reason for existing or being the way it is; and now they get that anything that they don't know the reason for still has a reason that I know. That's very important, and in some ways even MORE important for a successful Gonzo setting than for a setting that has more obvious sense to it.

I much prefer when I have confidence the GM has a reason for the gonzo. I prefer it even more when the reasons (when known) feel somewhat plausible. When things are just gonzo, or even gonzo with a gonzo backstory that I can't make myself believe at all, that tends to make it really hard for me to be very interested in the world.

Quote from: Itachi;1057497I also prefer when mysteries or heists come up in mid of a sandbox, because this usually means the players can approach it loosely/how they see fit, or simply drop it altogether, and whatever the outcome it simply affects the related entities or factions in the sandbox framework and move on.

That's how I feel, too.

Quote from: Itachi;1057497Now, if you never play those dedicated games, that's fair. But you can't dismiss they comprehend the most representative stances of their styles and will be the assumed benchmark when the matter comes up.

Yes, I appreciate that. I think writing it all out in advance like a Poirot script is a bad approach, but I do realise that is what most investigation games tend to do.

Mind you the adventures in my old Games Workshop hardback copy of Call of Cthulu 2e are pretty much location based sandboxes, not railroads at all. So there was another way.

Yes. If you're running a gonzo game and it just feels like there's no reason for anything, it causes players to think there's really no reason to do anything. It all just becomes "OMG so random".

Whereas if they get a sense there's a reason to everything, even if they don't know what it is, they get more deeply involved with the world.