Giant ape is CR 7 - no good for wildshape but handy for Polymorph.

I remember feeling sorry for the Druid at level 9 at the dearth of new forms, and letting her wildshape into CR 3 Owlbear.

I'm late to the party but the house rulings I'd make on Druid Animal Form would be

• Allow the Druid to only know 1 animal form at a time. Think of it like their spirit animal. Must be choosen in advance.
• Allow the Druid to change their chosen animal form but require a ritual to make said change.
• Druids HP stays same regardless of animal changed into.
• Movement type, Damage, senses, etc as per animal form in the Monster Manual. (So turning into a mouse you'd not even do 1hp dmg per attack, but you'd be damn small and hard to hit)
  
• Druids are not allowed to change into magical creatures, only natural creatures. (So no chimeras, dragons or elementals)
  
• No spell casting allowed while in animal form, but the Druid can speak with other animals. (Maybe just others of the species they've changed into? Maybe other Mamals, Insects, etc, or maybe all creatures. DM's caveat)
  

Quote from: HappyDaze;1055672Exploration I get, but help me to understand how Wild Shape is "disgustingly powerful" in the Social pillar.

I think this is probably referring to eavesdropping on conversations as a mouse or other small creature. As a mouse, they are extremely stealthy and even if spotted won't arouse suspicion. That is potentially extremely useful within social circles.

In general, I tend to agree with Opaopajr that wildshape is extremely useful even without combat tanking. Most of my play in 5E has been in the range of levels 1-8, and I've found it very powerful in that range.

Quote from: Omega;1055710Its not just that there are no good high CR animals. If your Druid has never been to a prehistoric themed area then there are NO high CR beasts at all. Or giant animals are few o none.

at CR 6 There is just the Mammoth...

And that huge list is the other issue. Yes, the DM can restrict it all with "you have to have seen the animal" but now we're back where we started, trying to fix the problem by adding our own rules. But if you don't do that, then now you get a few "hmm, what's the bestest thing i can use..." situation, dragging the game down.

Quote from: Doom;1055739Yes, the DM can restrict it all with "you have to have seen the animal" but now we're back where we started, trying to fix the problem by adding our own rules.

No, that's the rule in the book. Maybe not a good rule, but it is what it is.

Yes, it's a rule in the book...but adjudication of it is harsh. Do druids hang out together ever? Are there zoos? Can illusions work well enough? How about various polymorphs? Scrying? Any game world which works under that rule is likely to have a work-around already built into the culture.

As noted above Xanithars Guide actually adds in some guidelines for animals a druid knows based on region/biome.

Quote from: Omega;1055761As noted above Xanithars Guide actually adds in some guidelines for animals a druid knows based on region/biome.

I was looking at them yesterday and they are pretty good. But it requires the GM not be a dick and the player not be a dick. 5e really empowers GM judgement in a way some people aren't comfortable with. We never had any problem IMC set in Golarion's Varisia, the Druid couldn't turn into dinosaurs but she could do brown & cave bears, giant elk, houseruled owlbear, sabretooth tiger etc, as well as small animals and birds. She could have turned into a CR5 giant crocodile at 15th but by then was rarely Wildshaping.

IMO it's clear the intent is the Druid should be familiar with the animals in their natural environment, zoos and illusions and polymorphs don't count any more than seeing a picture in a book. YMMV (if you're a bad GM)

some summons dont work either as they are just spirits shaped like animals or whatever.

Over on BGG early on there was a small blowup over the druid and some other 5e things which culminated in one member declaring that it was the players 'right' to know every animal in the MM. Or every spell. etc. Same sorts who were claiming that if a player was running a cleric then the DM must put undead in the adventure for them to turn. Its usually not that bad over there. But when BGG goes Foregy they go whole hog.

Quote from: Omega;1055807Over on BGG early on there was a small blowup over the druid and some other 5e things which culminated in one member declaring that it was the players 'right' to know every animal in the MM. Or every spell. etc. Same sorts who were claiming that if a player was running a cleric then the DM must put undead in the adventure for them to turn. Its usually not that bad over there. But when BGG goes Foregy they go whole hog.

5e isn't designed to work with dickhead players (or GMs) - as the discussions I saw this morning over at The Gaming Den make clear.

I kind of hate that 5e requires heavy subjective balancing like this.

Let's just simplify it to the GM saying, "nuh uh" and move on.

From my perspective, if characters have abilities like wildshape, they should work even in the worse case that the druid is Chris Pratt and knows every dinosaur. But you know, 5e doesn't have solid rules like that and they basically don't work well "as is", so the GM has to step in and rework player abilities using open ended caveats.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1055672Exploration I get, but help me to understand how Wild Shape is "disgustingly powerful" in the Social pillar.

Social espionage and emotional favortism. Many overlook animals (assuming no language), while others get attached, or even go out of their way to cultivate vurtuous public appearances with them. Be a mundane animal, a 'wild pet', or even a sacred (or ill omen) animal, and use human indifference or attachment to flip the script.

Old tricks I well learned from other games where you could swap out into animal vessels.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1055816From my perspective, if characters have abilities like wildshape, they should work even in the worse case that the druid is Chris Pratt and knows every dinosaur.

Well it 'works' - the lost world dinosaur druid is more powerful than the druid restricted to medieval European animals, but it's not game breaking. I'd say it's a lot like wizard spellbooks, another open-ended power; it would be reasonable to allow druids to quest for unusual animals to acquire more forms.

Quote from: S'mon;1055781I was looking at them yesterday and they are pretty good. But it requires the GM not be a dick and the player not be a dick. 5e really empowers GM judgement in a way some people aren't comfortable with. We never had any problem IMC set in Golarion's Varisia, the Druid couldn't turn into dinosaurs but she could do brown & cave bears, giant elk, houseruled owlbear, sabretooth tiger etc, as well as small animals and birds. She could have turned into a CR5 giant crocodile at 15th but by then was rarely Wildshaping.

IMO it's clear the intent is the Druid should be familiar with the animals in their natural environment, zoos and illusions and polymorphs don't count any more than seeing a picture in a book. YMMV (if you're a bad GM)

I get people asking how long they have to "see" a creature before it counts.

If they see a T Rex for 5 seconds from across a field does it count?

Does it take a minute?

Just a glance?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1055837I get people asking how long they have to "see" a creature before it counts.

If they see a T Rex for 5 seconds from across a field does it count?

Does it take a minute?

Just a glance?

How about spending a Long Rest with one? Bit of Diane Fossey/Gorillas in the Mist?

You could be kind and allow 'attunement' to a form on a Short Rest, a la magic items.