Quote from: RPGPundit;1052210You are a ridiculously limited human being.

You seem to discount the absolute breadth of human behavior; for example, the culture where they played some sort of game that involved kicking the severed heads of the people they sacrificed (because they thought it kept the sun coming up every day) through hoops is already pretty damned alien to most people in the Western world.

Then throw in say, foot-binding, distending your lower lip until a dinner plate fits in it, stretching your necks using ever more metal bands, turning servants into eunuchs, keeping harems, ritualistically eating people, keeping the skeletal remains of your ancestors in your house, chopping off limbs, tongues, eyes and branding as forms of punishment. Some people have even ritually killed themselves en masse because their leaders told them to.

Then there are the folks on the opposite extreme who surrendered all their worldly possessions and spent the rest of their lives helping others, or in absolute silence while praying unceasingly or went off into complete isolation from the outside world in the name of spiritual connection with the divine.

There was a sect of Chinese monks who practiced Self-Mummification. There are people who dress up as furry creatures to have sex and those who enjoy dressing up as babies and having people spank them.

I defy you to come up with some cultural practice so alien that some human somewhere hasn't already tried it. Remember, humans came up with sagging pants as a cultural/fashion practice, invented the mood ring and pet rocks and devised the FATAL rpg system.

Aside from the Elves the other races are magically modified humans in the Majestic Wilderlands. In some cases the biology of the magical modification makes for a very different culture and individual mindset, , like orcs. Others not so much, halflings.

As for the elves their mindset and culture is dominated by their immortal lives and spiritual connection to the world.

My approach is not any better or worse than any other. There are lots of dials to turn on this topic. One of the reasons I setup things this way is because it makes most races relatable than some completely alien or non-human. And I found over the long run shifting the human averages for a race is enough to produce a series of alieness.

Demi-humans (excepting gnomes, really) are from human folklore, so by definition, aren't alien, but part of human culture.

Zee Bashew has a nice little piece in his 5e D&D animated series about using the optional Honor stat as a dwarven trait to define them.

[video=youtube;Wjbna_5eL6s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjbna_5eL6s[/youtube]

I did something similar for Gnomes using the Sanity and madness rules.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1052210You are a ridiculously limited human being.

I have yet to find any decent portrayals of demi-humans with genuinely inhuman psychology. Most writers seem to have extreme difficulty writing demi-humans as anything other than human ethnic groups.

Assuming that demi-humans have psychology shaped by their evolution, despite the young planet creationism rampant in fantasy settings, then their psychology should be shaped by their environment. For example, human psychology is characterized by tribalism, short-term thinking and wishful thinking. A species without those three psychological flaws will be extremely alien to us, and vice versa. (The only genuinely alien species I can think of in this regard are the zerg from Starcraft, at least in theory since in practice the games' narrative universe just turns them into the puppets of a deranged teenage girl with high heels glued to her feet. Like most mass market video games the plot is absolute garbage.)

In the case of elves and dwarves, they would have species-wide psychological traits that set them apart from humans. These are not just cultural traits that are trained, but actual psychological aspects of their species.

For example, humans have an innate fear of the dark because we cannot see in the dark. Dwarves can see in the dark perfectly, so you would expect them not to be afraid of the dark. They may, in fact, be terrified of the open sky in the same way that humans are terrified of underground labyrinths.

Elves may be capable of long-term thinking and thus find it trivially easy to take environmentalism as a matter of fact. In a single elven lifetime they saw the terrible wages of capitalism and decided to become eco-friendly communists or something.

I don't know how easy this is to communicate when the point of the game is generally to wreak violence.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1052767I have yet to find any decent portrayals of demi-humans with genuinely inhuman psychology. Most writers seem to have extreme difficulty writing demi-humans as anything other than human ethnic groups.

Assuming that demi-humans have psychology shaped by their evolution, despite the young planet creationism rampant in fantasy settings, then their psychology should be shaped by their environment. For example, human psychology is characterized by tribalism, short-term thinking and wishful thinking. A species without those three psychological flaws will be extremely alien to us, and vice versa. (The only genuinely alien species I can think of in this regard are the zerg from Starcraft, at least in theory since in practice the games' narrative universe just turns them into the puppets of a deranged teenage girl with high heels glued to her feet. Like most mass market video games the plot is absolute garbage.)

The Zerg are the descendants of the Bug sci-fi trope, used in Starship Troopers, Armor, Aliens, etc, etc. Terrestrial insects projected onto a spacefaring civilization. Very familiar, as we have a visceral reaction to the buggy sliminess of such races. They plug into our human expectations. Their hive mind hierarchy is obviously inspired by ants and bees.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1052768The Zerg are the descendants of the Bug sci-fi trope, used in Starship Troopers, Armor, Aliens, etc, etc. Terrestrial insects projected onto a spacefaring civilization. Very familiar, as we have a visceral reaction to the buggy sliminess of such races. They plug into our human expectations. Their hive mind hierarchy is obviously inspired by ants and bees.

What I mean is that the zerg are the first time the trope was depicted as a protagonist. The zerg are one of the three playable sides in the game and produced the gaming jargon "zerg rush."

Initially they were written as driven to perfect themselves by assimilating the strongest species in the universe, the characters talked in a manner reminiscent of the King Jame Bible and Shakespeare, and they were set up as the main villain of the franchise. Basically they were the entirely biological equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek, if you were the sort of person who played the Borg in the video games where they were playable.

All of that was quickly discarded in favor of turning the zerg into the puppets of some crazy succubus with daddy/boyfriend issues (even the Born Queen was better than that), they were rewritten as the nice friendly misunderstood victims of an evil space demon, and by the end of the last released game they became peaceful hippies.

This is a real shame because, barring 4X games like Stellaris and Endless Legend (which do not have much in the way of narrative due to the format), there are no other examples in all fiction ever published of voracious bug monsters bent on conquering the universe being written as protagonists.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1052771What I mean is that the zerg are the first time the trope was depicted as a protagonist. The zerg are one of the three playable sides in the game and produced the gaming jargon "zerg rush."

Initially they were written as driven to perfect themselves by assimilating the strongest species in the universe, the characters talked in a manner reminiscent of the King Jame Bible and Shakespeare, and they were set up as the main villain of the franchise. Basically they were the entirely biological equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek, if you were the sort of person who played the Borg in the video games where they were playable.

All of that was quickly discarded in favor of turning the zerg into the puppets of some crazy succubus with daddy/boyfriend issues (even the Born Queen was better than that), they were rewritten as the nice friendly misunderstood victims of an evil space demon, and by the end of the last released game they became peaceful hippies.

This is a real shame because, barring 4X games like Stellaris and Endless Legend (which do not have much in the way of narrative due to the format), there are no other examples in all fiction ever published of voracious bug monsters bent on conquering the universe being written as protagonists.

Sure, but even with your example, I wouldn't call them alien. Humans have engaged in eugenics in an attempt at reaching perfection. Assimilation (borg or bug) has it's analogies in efforts to convert people to various ideologies. It's all very human-relatable.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1051573... with some biologically reinforced differences based primarily on longevity, low birth rates, and not sleeping/dreaming (if applicable...

I'm in the camp of favoring biologically-based differences. Can you elaborate on what you do with any examples?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1052773Sure, but even with your example, I wouldn't call them alien. Humans have engaged in eugenics in an attempt at reaching perfection. Assimilation (borg or bug) has it's analogies in efforts to convert people to various ideologies. It's all very human-relatable.

Really? What would you call "alien" then? I think your line of reasoning is excessively broad to the point where it makes "alien" impossible because every form of life can be reduced to "human-relatable" terms.

Your analogy to eugenics and totalitarian ideologies falls flat because the shtick of the zerg is that they embrace diversity. Where the Nazis tried to created an ideal, the zerg breed killing machines specialized for every imaginable purpose. Small dog-like zerglings, huge blimp-like overlords, gigantic hatcheries that constantly spawn larvae, and silverfish-like "cancer factories." Where the Communists tried to make everyone think alike, the zerg create immense detachments or "broods" of their species which are given a directive around which they build their personalities and adaptations, such as breeding, mining, or warfare.

If that is not alien, then I do not know what is.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1052828Really? What would you call "alien" then? I think your line of reasoning is excessively broad to the point where it makes "alien" impossible because every form of life can be reduced to "human-relatable" terms.

This highlights the problem. Give me an example of a non-fictional form of life that isn't terrestrial, so we can compare.

QuoteYour analogy to eugenics and totalitarian ideologies falls flat because the shtick of the zerg is that they embrace diversity. Where the Nazis tried to created an ideal, the zerg breed killing machines specialized for every imaginable purpose. Small dog-like zerglings, huge blimp-like overlords, gigantic hatcheries that constantly spawn larvae, and silverfish-like "cancer factories." Where the Communists tried to make everyone think alike, the zerg create immense detachments or "broods" of their species which are given a directive around which they build their personalities and adaptations, such as breeding, mining, or warfare.

If that is not alien, then I do not know what is.

Exactly. Until we have a real-world example of a truly alien life form, we have no basis for comparison. There is great variety in the kinds of life forms on earth, but they all share the same basic structure of cabon based DNA, compete for similar resources in similar ways as each other. Prey on each other because they share that DNA, and can use each other for food. All humans have babies, and structures of heirarchies. Use similar tools, make music, laugh and cry and poop and stub their toes. Which of those experiences would an alien being share, and which would they find utterly alien?

The zerg are super ants much like the Tyrannids in 40k. And lets be honest. Most bugs are alien. They may do some recognizable things. But alot of what they do is alien to how a human or most mammals think or act.

But personally I think trying to make elves and such into something alien in D&D misses the point that these are relatively human races. And even basing off the fey they still come across as overall human-ish in how they think and act.

Star Frontiers had some interesting approaches to their aliens. Especially the Vrusk and Dralasites. The vrusk were very clan/group/company oriented but not hive minded. The dralasites found bad puns hilarious, changed gender essentially by season and had a thing for perfumes. Same with Traveller. The Azlan are more or less relatable. But something like the Hivers are weird.

Lots of different ways to go about it and really alien elves can be interesting too.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1052833This highlights the problem. Give me an example of a non-fictional form of life that isn't terrestrial, so we can compare.

The octopus? It is the most intelligent invertebrate so it would have a completely different psychology from humans. Furthermore, the octopus is not humanoid at all but still follows the apparent trend that complex life is pressured towards cephalization (concentrating the central nervous system and sensory organs around the anterior of the digestive tract). In fact, the cephalopods display higher cephalization than vertebrates since their brain is wrapped around their esophagus.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1052833Exactly. Until we have a real-world example of a truly alien life form, we have no basis for comparison. There is great variety in the kinds of life forms on earth, but they all share the same basic structure of cabon based DNA, compete for similar resources in similar ways as each other. Prey on each other because they share that DNA, and can use each other for food. All humans have babies, and structures of heirarchies. Use similar tools, make music, laugh and cry and poop and stub their toes. Which of those experiences would an alien being share, and which would they find utterly alien?

Even alien life will have analogues to terrestrial life, simply because we live in the same universe subject to the same laws of physics. Even if the building materials are different, alien life will still be subject to game theory, natural selection and so forth. We can speculate based on the knowledge we have because those rules do not change.

Quote from: Omega;1052835Star Frontiers had some interesting approaches to their aliens. Especially the Vrusk and Dralasites. The vrusk were very clan/group/company oriented but not hive minded. The dralasites found bad puns hilarious, changed gender essentially by season and had a thing for perfumes. Same with Traveller. The Azlan are more or less relatable. But something like the Hivers are weird.

Don't forget the aliens in The Galactos Barrier.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1052840The octopus? It is the most intelligent invertebrate so it would have a completely different psychology from humans. Furthermore, the octopus is not humanoid at all but still follows the apparent trend that complex life is pressured towards cephalization (concentrating the central nervous system and sensory organs around the anterior of the digestive tract). In fact, the cephalopods display higher cephalization than vertebrates since their brain is wrapped around their esophagus.

That was a trick question. The octopus is a terrestrial creature. It comes from earth. It is, by definition, an earthling, and will have much more in common with us than any alien creature.

QuoteEven alien life will have analogues to terrestrial life, simply because we live in the same universe subject to the same laws of physics. Even if the building materials are different, alien life will still be subject to game theory, natural selection and so forth. We can speculate based on the knowledge we have because those rules do not change.

We can speculate, but our speculation will be heavily influenced by our experiences of life on this planet. And once you get past "It's a being" the speculation part has to fill in a lot of details.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1052852That was a trick question. The octopus is a terrestrial creature. It comes from earth. It is, by definition, an earthling, and will have much more in common with us than any alien creature.

That seems disingenuous. Just because something was not an earthling does not mean it will be unrecognizable or that it will have less in common with us than we do with jellyfish. Niches exist independently of planets and there is no reason to believe that alien life will be fundamentally different with regards to that.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1052852We can speculate, but our speculation will be heavily influenced by our experiences of life on this planet. And once you get past "It's a being" the speculation part has to fill in a lot of details.

And I feel like you are falling into the logical fallacies of moving the goal posts and arguing from ignorance. There are numerous speculative biology projects. Do you really think all of them are too similar to terrestrial life and do not paint a believable picture of alien life?