Quote from: RPGPundit;1049764There's still a big difference than that and having every fucking Drow PC being a dual-scimitar wielding good-aligned total-reject from everything his society stands for.

And again you're shifting the goal posts with false and hyperbolic information.  And not addressing that every player character IS in essence the equivalent of a 'dual scimitar wielding reject from their society' by simply being ADVENTURERS.  Having a Class in a D&D style game makes the character unusual.

My point still stands.

Quote from: Narmer;1049825Just glancing at these articles it still seems that only a small portion of the population traveled significantly or regularly.

How much of today's population travels significantly or regularly? Is it accurate to say that over 90% of the modern human population lives and dies in the same town or city they were born in?

People back then traveled if they had reasons to travel. The single most common reason was take part in the economy, just like today. In general, population centers were and still are reliant on a network of resource distribution stretching across the continent. If you need to buy something, you went to market. If they did not have it, you went to another market.

There was no invisible tether keeping people tied down. If they needed to leave, such as to avoid war or starvation or a natural disaster, then they left.

But I don't see what this has to do with adventuring seeing as adventurers have never existed in reality. Sure, we have mercenaries, criminals, tomb raiders, vigilantes and so forth, but adventurers in the sense of mythic heroes or fairytale questers or the modern murderhobos have never existed in reality. Arguing about medieval stereotypes is irrelevant to that.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1049852How much of today's population travels significantly or regularly? Is it accurate to say that over 90% of the modern human population lives and dies in the same town or city they were born in?

Not disproving his point...

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1049852People back then traveled if they had reasons to travel. The single most common reason was take part in the economy, just like today. In general, population centers were and still are reliant on a network of resource distribution stretching across the continent. If you need to buy something, you went to market. If they did not have it, you went to another market.

There was no invisible tether keeping people tied down. If they needed to leave, such as to avoid war or starvation or a natural disaster, then they left.

But if they didn't need to, they wouldn't.  Kinda like most Fantasy races in a Fantasy game.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1049852But I don't see what this has to do with adventuring seeing as adventurers have never existed in reality. Sure, we have mercenaries, criminals, tomb raiders, vigilantes and so forth, but adventurers in the sense of mythic heroes or fairytale questers or the modern murderhobos have never existed in reality. Arguing about medieval stereotypes is irrelevant to that.

Maybe not now, but yes there were.  What do you think the explorers of the new world were?  They were men, and some women, who wanted to seek out something more than they had, or wanted to prove a point and did it.  But like PC's in a game, they were not the norm.

Pundy is still wrong. Chris24601 original point still stands.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1049807Here is an article with sources debunking the stereotype that medieval people rarely traveled. In fact, the middle ages saw a boom in transportation.

EDIT: And here is an entire essay with citations.

Read the articles. Interesting stuff, but none of it disproves the point that the career of wandering hero fell well outside the social norms of society. If anything, it underscores the lack of adventurers among the general populace as most of those able to travel used well traveled routes for business or pilgrimage and then returned home when their business was done. I believe I even mentioned in my post that pilgrimage and war as reasons one might leave home, but those were temporary and exceptional conditions and the goal of those journeys was to finish one's business (spiritual, military and/or economic) and then return home.

That is NOT a D&D adventurer; who are, by and large, wandering mercenaries and treasure hunters who live in no fixed location (at least not until name level and sometimes not even them), own no land and owe fealty to no one and whose underlings serve for coin (or promise of coin) rather than as sworn vassals. They fall so far outside the social norms of the period that they'd almost certainly be outlaws.

As it relates to the moved goalposts, I'd agree with Mr. Brady that every PC is basically a Drizzt for their species, but also add that while I've seen plenty of Drow played, I've never actually seen even one Drizzt clone.

I've seen a Drow cleric of Elistree (the goddess of good-aligned Drow in the Realms... so many thousands to tens of thousands of good-aligned Drow exist in the Realms since that's the threshold for being a lesser god as Elistree is according to Deities & Demigods).

I've seen a CN Drow psion who's main deviation from Drow culture was that they were willing to form genuine alliances with non-Drow to help her overthrow the current Drow queen and replace her.

I've seen a Drow assassin who lives in exile (his family was on the wrong side of a power struggle) selling his services to the highest bidder.

They're all unique in their own way, just like every PC is.

Quote from: Narmer;1049825Just glancing at these articles it still seems that only a small portion of the population traveled significantly or regularly.

Sure, but the problem the people making the argument have is that they're trying to pretend that if you run Lion & Dragon you'd be playing serfs with no prospects. The PCs would obviously belong to that percentage of people who did travel.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1050128Sure, but the problem the people making the argument have is that they're trying to pretend that if you run Lion & Dragon you'd be playing serfs with no prospects. The PCs would obviously belong to that percentage of people who did travel.

And Pundit fumbles his deflection roll. No one was discussing your little faux medieval rpg.

We were discussing that PC's in general are exceptional individuals not typical representatives of a given species. The argument presented was that Drizzt is no more atypical for a Drow than a high level fighter is atypical for humans. Pundit can't actually refute that so he's trying to change the subject.

Quote from: Chris24601;1050150And Pundit fumbles his deflection roll. No one was discussing your little faux medieval rpg.

We were discussing that PC's in general are exceptional individuals not typical representatives of a given species. The argument presented was that Drizzt is no more atypical for a Drow than a high level fighter is atypical for humans. Pundit can't actually refute that so he's trying to change the subject.

This is why I redefine dark elves so that they are an acceptable PC race.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1050152This is why I redefine dark elves so that they are an acceptable PC race.

Except my point, and I believe Mr. Brady's as well, is that they're already an acceptable PC race. A drow deciding to run away from drow society and become a good-aligned wandering adventurer is no more rare than a human deciding they want to be a wandering murder-hobo.

Both are quite rare in the world, but every PC is an exception. In addition, in the very setting that Drizzt originated in, there's an actual lesser goddess who's portfolio is good-aligned drow. Since she's a lesser goddess and not a demigod that means she's got a minimum of many thousands of good aligned drow worshipers, possibly even tens of thousands. That basically means that Drizzt being good-aligned drow isn't even something unique to himself... what sets him apart is the same thing that sets every PC adventurer apart... that they're willing to be a wandering murder-hobo despite coming from a society where such activities are definitely NOT the norm of behavior.

Quote from: Chris24601;1050181Drizzt being good-aligned drow isn't even something unique to himself... what sets him apart is

That R.A. Salvatore got published:). That's all there is to it, apart from lots of descriptions of battles that are taking pages upon pages!

And I don't know why this conversation keeps going. PCs are people who are ready to go places and take risks. Period.
And yes, most such people have unique traits;).

That most players choose to play wandering mercenaries just tells me more about the way most players choose to unwind after a day at work.

Quote from: AsenRG;1050203That R.A. Salvatore got published:). That's all there is to it, apart from lots of descriptions of battles that are taking pages upon pages!

This is very reductive.  There is a reason adventure novels sell, and that's because certain characters resonates with the reader.  And as much as I HATE the Drizzle, he does have his appeal.  He's the visual extreme of the hero trope, comes from an oppressive, violent society that's well known and tries to be better than it, and to prove to others that at least ONE Drow is worth respecting.  It's very Teenager, but it's also VERY popular.

Quote from: AsenRG;1050203And I don't know why this conversation keeps going. PCs are people who are ready to go places and take risks. Period.

Because we have one section of the 'community' who believe that their way is the 'right way' and is trying to remove any real nuance and interesting conversation.  And frankly, there's so many examples proving them wrong.

Quote from: AsenRG;1050203And yes, most such people have unique traits;).

That most players choose to play wandering mercenaries just tells me more about the way most players choose to unwind after a day at work.

Why?  Do you also believe that those who like action movies or the horror genre also have 'problems'?

Quote from: Chris24601;1050181Except my point, and I believe Mr. Brady's as well, is that they're already an acceptable PC race. A drow deciding to run away from drow society and become a good-aligned wandering adventurer is no more rare than a human deciding they want to be a wandering murder-hobo.

You are correct, Sir.

Quote from: Chris24601;1049870I've seen a Drow cleric of Elistree (the goddess of good-aligned Drow in the Realms... so many thousands to tens of thousands of good-aligned Drow exist in the Realms since that's the threshold for being a lesser god as Elistree is according to Deities & Demigods).

I don't think they were ever all meant to live in the realms - just somewhere in the Prime Material plane.
So if we assume that there are 10000 worlds then each setting only needs one!

Quote from: TJS;1050429I don't think they were ever all meant to live in the realms - just somewhere in the Prime Material plane.
So if we assume that there are 10000 worlds then each setting only needs one!

Each setting's Prime Material Plane has its own gods and is a distinct reality. The Realms, Oerth, Krynn, etc. aren't different worlds in the same 'galaxy'/universe you could reach with a sufficiently fast FTL drive. They're essentially alternate 'Earths' akin to the DC multiverse.

The Forgotten Realms further established that the gods with equivalents in other settings (ex. Bahamut and Tiamat, the Egyptian pantheon of Mulhorand, etc.) are alternate reality doubles of each other (so the Realms' Bane and the Neranth Bane are akin to Superman from Earth-1 and Earth-2) and each with their own sets of worshippers.

Thus, the intention with Elistree was that there are actually thousands of good aligned Drow in the Forgotten Realms who have their own lesser goddess as a patron.

Quote from: Chris24601;1050460Each setting's Prime Material Plane has its own gods and is a distinct reality. The Realms, Oerth, Krynn, etc. aren't different worlds in the same 'galaxy'/universe you could reach with a sufficiently fast FTL drive. They're essentially alternate 'Earths' akin to the DC multiverse.

The Forgotten Realms further established that the gods with equivalents in other settings (ex. Bahamut and Tiamat, the Egyptian pantheon of Mulhorand, etc.) are alternate reality doubles of each other (so the Realms' Bane and the Neranth Bane are akin to Superman from Earth-1 and Earth-2) and each with their own sets of worshippers.

Thus, the intention with Elistree was that there are actually thousands of good aligned Drow in the Forgotten Realms who have their own lesser goddess as a patron.

When was this determined?

Because by my memory other worlds were precisely a thing you could visit with a sufficiently fast Spelljammer.

Quote from: TJS;1050505When was this determined?

Because by my memory other worlds were precisely a thing you could visit with a sufficiently fast Spelljammer.

It was determined by the time of Spelljammer actually in that no god's influence extended beyond its own crystal sphere. The Tiamat in one crystal sphere might be nearly identical to the Tiamat in another crystal sphere, but they are actually two separate entities with their own worshippers.

This concept of separate gods for each realm was maintained in Planescape and referred to again in the 3e era (I believe in "Faiths & Pantheons"; the FR specific version of "Dieties & Demigods).

There's also just the fact that Elistree literally only appears in Forgotten Realms specific material that suggests she's not a multiversal goddess with just a few worshippers on a thousand worlds, but a 'local' goddess who has several thousand worshippers on a single world. In fact all the gods are presumed to work this way; lesser gods have several thousand to tens of thousands of worshippers on a single world (because 2-10 worshippers on a thousand worlds would be a single temple on a given world... something no one outside of the town it actually resided in would even be aware of).

Also worth remembering is that a lot of campaigns don't even presume there are multiple worlds out there in the first place so the number of worshippers for each tier of gods is written as 'this is how prevalent the deity's faith is on a single world' because that's what a typical DM is going to find useful. Frankly if it presumed the numbers as 'across the entire multiverse' then only the greatest of the greater gods (i.e. those with tens to hundreds of millions of worshippers) would have sufficient numbers on any world to even be noticeable.

In other words; yes, there are intended to be enough good-aligned drow in the Forgotten Realms setting to support the existence of a lesser deity devoted to them. As it relates to the topic at hand that means

Quote from: Chris24601;1050512This concept of separate gods for each realm was maintained in Planescape and referred to again in the 3e era (I believe in "Faiths & Pantheons"; the FR specific version of "Dieties & Demigods).

That doesn't sound right to me.  Planescape just says where specific gods live - it doesn't separate them based on where they come from.  In fact that really doesn't make any sense.  In planescape you have gods from various different worlds knocking around with Thor and Odin.

Of course I recall 3E made some changes with cosmology and determined that FR had to have it's own thing.

QuoteThere's also just the fact that Elistree literally only appears in Forgotten Realms specific material that suggests she's not a multiversal goddess with just a few worshippers on a thousand worlds, but a 'local' goddess who has several thousand worshippers on a single world.

No she's in Monstrous Mythology which is setting neutral.  I can't recall her appearing in any other non-FR material but Kiaransalee (another Drow goddess) does - she appears in the Vault of the Drow in Oerth in the Planescape adventure Dead Gods where she has enough followers to be having a civil war with those of Lolth and by Canon - both FR and Montrous Mythology she originates not from Toril, but from the world of Threnody, which seems to strongly imply that, at least at some point, the Drow pantheon was considered a multiversal one.

QuoteIn fact all the gods are presumed to work this way; lesser gods have several thousand to tens of thousands of worshippers on a single world (because 2-10 worshippers on a thousand worlds would be a single temple on a given world... something no one outside of the town it actually resided in would even be aware of).

The only source I can recall from this was Monstrous Mythology 2E - and I'm pretty sure it said nothing about a single world (that may have been changed at a later date of course - probably 3E).

QuoteAlso worth remembering is that a lot of campaigns don't even presume there are multiple worlds out there in the first place so the number of worshippers for each tier of gods is written as 'this is how prevalent the deity's faith is on a single world' because that's what a typical DM is going to find useful. Frankly if it presumed the numbers as 'across the entire multiverse' then only the greatest of the greater gods (i.e. those with tens to hundreds of millions of worshippers) would have sufficient numbers on any world to even be noticeable.

Well yes that would seem to be a logical corollary - but I doubt that much thought was necessarily given to it.

QuoteIn other words; yes, there are intended to be enough good-aligned drow in the Forgotten Realms setting to support the existence of a lesser deity devoted to them. As it relates to the topic at hand that means

The problem with that is you're drawing an intention out of a logical corrollary, when it seems to be contradicted by more concrete setting elements.

In 2E, there was Drizzt and then there was a small cult of Elistrae in Skullport with special swords of (from hazy memory) I would guess dozens of good aligned Drow, with the implication there could be a few such cells elsewhere in the realms.  And then there were player characters.

I submit that it's far more likely that the designers never really gave much thought to the changes in canon they made between editions and the implications of the maths they wrote for different statuses of gods then that they ever intended that there be 1000s of good aligned drow in the Forgotten Realms.