BTW, for anyone interested in a good White Wolf game, buy the original Vampire:the Masquerade. It's a fever dream, but its raw and exciting. It runs fine as is. I see no reason to support the new product. Whatever system wiggles they finally publish won't make up for the lack of clarity of vision that's so strong in the original book.

Or buy Nightbane from Palladium if you want all the horror and kewl monster PCs, but with a tenth of the angst and politics.

Quote from: S'mon;1049723OK so REH definitely considered him pro-Fascist! I guess would need to see the HPL quotes to be sure.

I guess I've seen enough here to change my mind* and say I would consider HPL a racist by any reasonable definition, at least for much of his career.

*It can happen!

Spike Lee is a racist and I doubt there will be any calls to burn/ban/shelve any of his work.

Quote from: waltshumate;1049753Spike Lee is a racist and I doubt there will be any calls to burn/ban/shelve any of his work.

What about Einstein?
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44472277

I guess his name needs to be erased from the annals of science.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1049731BTW, for anyone interested in a good White Wolf game, buy the original Vampire:the Masquerade. It's a fever dream, but its raw and exciting. It runs fine as is. I see no reason to support the new product. Whatever system wiggles they finally publish won't make up for the lack of clarity of vision that's so strong in the original book.

Or buy Nightbane from Palladium if you want all the horror and kewl monster PCs, but with a tenth of the angst and politics.

This guy gets it. Vampire: The Masquerade 1E was a masterpiece of RPG's.

Shame that Revised Edition and V5 have shat all over what was once an awesome game.

Seriously, Justin Achilli and Martin Ericsson can go fuck themselves.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1049731BTW, for anyone interested in a good White Wolf game, buy the original Vampire:the Masquerade. It's a fever dream, but its raw and exciting. It runs fine as is. I see no reason to support the new product. Whatever system wiggles they finally publish won't make up for the lack of clarity of vision that's so strong in the original book.

Or buy Nightbane from Palladium if you want all the horror and kewl monster PCs, but with a tenth of the angst and politics.

Nightlife is better, if only because it does not strangle itself with the vampire premise. The kin races (yes, they were called that years before Vampire came out) have a lot more variety. If you cannot stand the late 80s era rules, it is easy enough to recreate the kin races as strains and sub-strains within the freely available game Feed.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1049731BTW, for anyone interested in a good White Wolf game, buy the original Vampire:the Masquerade.

Yep! There is no 5th edition...

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1049791Nightlife is better, if only because it does not strangle itself with the vampire premise. The kin races (yes, they were called that years before Vampire came out) have a lot more variety. If you cannot stand the late 80s era rules, it is easy enough to recreate the kin races as strains and sub-strains within the freely available game Feed.

I ran NightLife with AD&D rules in 1992-3! I was OSR before there was OSR.

Quote from: S'mon;1049723OK so REH definitely considered him pro-Fascist! I guess would need to see the HPL quotes to be sure.

I guess I've seen enough here to change my mind* and say I would consider HPL a racist by any reasonable definition, at least for much of his career.

*It can happen!

Le gasp! For reals? Someone was persuaded by proof over the Internet?
Pundit, as our resident occultist - is there anything special about the date 20-07-2018:D?

Quote from: Simlasa;1049725Lovecraft died before WWII got going, had no inkling of the horrors that would come to light.
Like a lot of other Americans and Germans, he saw Hitler as a lesser evil in the face of Communism. The list of better educated and informed Americans who threw in with the Nazis early on is pretty long.
 
So what's the point of singling out Lovecraft?
What's the point of flogging the dead when we have plenty of nasty folks right here among the living?

He's the only one of those that still influences the RPG hobby:)?
And my point was simple: much as the SJWs are overreacting, that doesn't mean that they're factually wrong about him being racist. Which S'mon had expressed doubts about.
So I offered him proof.
That was all. I'm not calling for a boycott, and remain a CoC fan...though amusingly, I find the Lovecraft's Mythos part to be the weakest component of it;).

Quote from: waltshumate;1049753Spike Lee is a racist and I doubt there will be any calls to burn/ban/shelve any of his work.

Is he?

Quote from: Simlasa;1049760What about Einstein?
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44472277

I guess his name needs to be erased from the annals of science.

And that's why the SJWs are overreacting;).

Quote from: Simlasa;1049760What about Einstein?
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44472277

I guess his name needs to be erased from the annals of science.

Heck, Little House on the Prairie author isn't safe.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/25/laura-ingalls-wilders-name-stripped-from-childrens-book-award-over-little-house-depictions-of-native-americans/

Quote from: Simlasa;1049725So what's the point of singling out Lovecraft?  What's the point of flogging the dead when we have plenty of nasty folks right here among the living?

The dead don't fight back, so it is an easy target. A great many SJWs faux rage on fans of Lovecraft and Lovecraft scholars like S.T. Joshi because fans and scholars like Lovecraft but aren't sufficiently hair pulling and hand wringing over it. Fans and scholars then are 'collaborators'.

Quote from: AsenRG;1049926He's the only one of those that still influences the RPG hobby:)?

Is he? How can we be truly safe without knowing the innermost thoughts of all writers and RPG designers?!!! We need purity tests!

QuoteAnd my point was simple: much as the SJWs are overreacting, that doesn't mean that they're factually wrong about him being racist.

There should be no doubt that he was a racist. My only point has been that people can/do change and that saying you admire Hitler/Nazis in 1933 U.S.A. is a very different thing than saying you admire them in 1945 or 2018.
Heck, Walt Disney went to Bund meetings and was an anti-semite, but 'Uncle Walt' is still an exalted figure these days.

Quote from: Simlasa;1049946Is he? How can we be truly safe without knowing the innermost thoughts of all writers and RPG designers?!!! We need purity tests!

I know you're joking, but I'm not sure SJWs wouldn't try to take you on the joke:).

QuoteThere should be no doubt that he was a racist.

Nerzenjäger and S'mon did express doubt about the "racist" moniker. S'mon in particular mentioned that "he didn't subscribe to a Nazi-style ideology". Except I knew that he did, because of what I've read about REH;).

QuoteMy only point has been that people can/do change

Allegedly true, if uncommon.

Quoteand that saying you admire Hitler/Nazis in 1933 U.S.A. is a very different thing than saying you admire them in 1945 or 2018.

I'm not sure it is all that different, really.
As proven by his letters (that I quoted), RE Howard considered the Nazis power-mad totalitarians in the 30ies, and to say that the man wasn't exactly a paragon of racial equality would probably count as white-washing his memory:D!

QuoteHeck, Walt Disney went to Bund meetings and was an anti-semite, but 'Uncle Walt' is still an exalted figure these days.

I know about Bund. Didn't have any idea anyone considers "Uncle Walt" to be any kind of "exalted figure", though. Outside of kids, most people I know either know nothing about him, ortend to consider him a very successful businessman whose company had a very negative influence on IP laws!

Quote from: AsenRG;1049959S'mon in particular mentioned that "he didn't subscribe to a Nazi-style ideology". Except I knew that he did, because of what I've read about REH;).

QuoteI'm not sure it is all that different, really.

I really don't it's a fair assumption that because someone in early '30s America fell for what Hitler was selling that they must have been  on board for what that eventually led to. Even to Lovecraft, Hitler was merely seen as a regrettable 'lesser evil' in the face of communism.
REH was right in his suspicions... but even he wasn't predicting the Final Solution.

QuoteDidn't have any idea anyone considers "Uncle Walt" to be any kind of "exalted figure"...

Oh, I know a couple adult Disney fanatics and they've exposed me to a LOT more of their tribe. It's a thing.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1049791Nightlife is better, if only because it does not strangle itself with the vampire premise.

Please start a Nightlife thread!!!

Quote from: AsenRG;1049959Didn't have any idea anyone considers "Uncle Walt" to be any kind of "exalted figure", though.

He's got a huge fandom, sometimes almost cult like, among the Disneyana crowd.

He's one of the few Hollywood originators you see lionized in Los Angeles. You won't find much memorabilia about the creators of other studios, but Walt mementos abound.

I recently read that after Pearl Harbor, the US military occupied Disney Studios! Apparently Disney was seen as potentially subversive.