Quote from: S'mon;10489531990s Feminist Political Correctness was quite different in several ways, and was definitely not dominated by Intersectionality.

Dominated, no. But it was a principle to be observed. Or did that part also creep in circa the new millennium?

QuoteThe cultural Marxist totem poll of victimhood status did exist (so eg feminist organisation NOW supported OJ Simpson, because he's black, rather than the family of the white wife he murdered - the man he murdered was of course of no interest), but the made up genders stuff wasn't much of a thing, and there was not a general recognition that a man identifying as a woman had higher status than an actual woman. There was also less of an emphasis on victimhood and mental illness as status markers generally.

The emphasis on these varied, and it started to shift towards the "new crazy" circa the new millennium, when the 3rd wave became the 3.5wave, IMO. At least from what I was able to tell.

QuoteI remember at my University about 10 years ago, it was quite confusing when visiting speakers started using "Radical Feminist" as a derogatory term - they became the even more derogatory TERFs when transgenderism became dominant in 2012. In the 1990s Left it was still Good to be a Radical Feminist.

Yeah, I can imagine that would be confusing;).

Still, that's definitely a more serious tone than the whole movement deserves:p!

Quote from: rgalex;1048808The thing is, she wasn't always like this.  I knew Anna back in our college days.  Her husband was part of my gaming circle of friends.  We've gamed together, we've been to friends weddings together, etc.  She was fine back then, maybe a little uptight, but cool to hang out with.  

Now though?  Now she's a woman-appearing-person.  I read her blog over the years and it was like watching a train wreck happen in real-time.  People compare 4th wave feminism to cancer.  Seeing Anna change over the years, yeah... it's kinda like that.

I am sorry that you feel that you've lost a good friendly acquaintance. Personal recommendation: don't feel shut out of her 'new exciting life', and leave the door open if she ever needs a 'quiet listening ear'. She is dancing upon eggshells among the (self-)righteous, and in the end ALL fail this dance, especially those who protest the loudest.

A lot of 'wokeness' comes from idealistic conversions, and there's nothing more insufferable than a recent convert -- of ALL stripes -- especially to 'the faithful'. It comes from zeal untempered by practicable humanity (usable in the real world without exhausting contortions). It is a violent phase that commonly passes once the lens of humane-ness within an ideology extends to all it gazes upon... and realizes sometimes that it too, the lens, needs to be switched out. The world and its beings are too big for any singular ideology to encapsulate without harm somewhere.

There is no perfect in this world. But the struggle for ideals, tempered with applied wisdom, is still worthwhile. May she be met in happier circumstance again.

------------
(edit: and as much as I'd love to jump in this discussion between 3rd & 4th gen Feminism, esp. regards terms, transsexuality, transgender, et alia, I don't feel this would be a fruitful discussion here. Too hot, too moderated, and more importantly too distracting to this topic. Best advice: the "Us v. Them" cake is a lie... on all sides. Let it go. )

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1048931I'm not sure rpg.net ever had enough women to be able to go nuts. The population was like,

Male - 85%
Transgendered - 11% (entirely M2F)
Furries - 6%
Women - 1%
* does not add to 100% because of overlap and membership of multiple groups

Almost all transsexuals are men pretending to be women.

It's a mental illness.

Quote from: Lurtch;1048968Almost all transsexuals are men pretending to be women.

It's a mental illness.

There was this weird Tangency thread years ago which revealed that all the posters with "feminine" usernames and girly avatars were in fact transsexuals. At that time the whole trans thing wasn't yet part of our daily cultural discourse. So it was a headscratching moment for me - these people are 0.2% of the general population, yet they are 10% of rpgnet posters, and many are either mods or have the ear of mods? It was like going to a cooking class and realising that it's been taken over by fanatical Theosophists. Why did they choose to gather there, what has Theosophy got to do with cooking, and why are they so angry?

Quote from: The_Shadow;1048979There was this weird Tangency thread years ago which revealed that all the posters with "feminine" usernames and girly avatars were in fact transsexuals. At that time the whole trans thing wasn't yet part of our daily cultural discourse. So it was a headscratching moment for me - these people are 0.2% of the general population, yet they are 10% of rpgnet posters, and many are either mods or have the ear of mods? It was like going to a cooking class and realising that it's been taken over by fanatical Theosophists. Why did they choose to gather there, what has Theosophy got to do with cooking, and why are they so angry?

Transgenderists really like roleplaying? At least the idea of it.

BTW I noticed that the media comes up with f2m transgenders to match the m2fs, but I never encounter them IRL or even on the Internet. It's always m2f.

Quote from: S'mon;1048990Transgenderists really like roleplaying? At least the idea of it.

BTW I noticed that the media comes up with f2m transgenders to match the m2fs, but I never encounter them IRL or even on the Internet. It's always m2f.

I've read estimates that it's 70/30 split but I'm willing to bet real money that they are trying to balance out those numbers. I bet it's more 90/10. It's men that are more likely to have this mental illness than women.

Quote from: Lurtch;1048992I've read estimates that it's 70/30 split but I'm willing to bet real money that they are trying to balance out those numbers. I bet it's more 90/10. It's men that are more likely to have this mental illness than women.

I think there are different sorts of mental problems and social influence at work, and some may be relatively sex-balanced, but by far the most common seems to be middle aged heterosexual men with an autogynephilia fetish. These also tend to be by far the most aggressive and politically active, and the ones physically attacking lesbian 'terfs'. They tend to have pretty macho dispositions, moreso than most men, which in conjunction with a victimhood claim makes a powerful combination.

Read White Wolf's response and all the comments to it available at the time on Facebook, and I can safely say that the community just did far more harm to itself than any real or imagined Nazis.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1048129This is explained in the article that I linked to. Here is a quotation:

Quote from: Jason SanfordSonia was extremely disturbed by Lovecraft's anti-Semitism and repeatedly raised this issue with Lovecraft, as related in this Wired article which states "Greene told a biographer later that she kept reminding Lovecraft about her own background, but it didn't seem to dissuade him from his fear of Jews and other immigrants."

Sonia even once confronted Lovecraft on how she was a member of a group he despised, to which he responded by saying she "no longer belonged to these mongrels."

Funny how people can hold their prejudice in the face of obvious counter-examples. Funny how people drop their prejudice once they feel you're one of them.

Just goes to show how none of this is rational.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1048129It does not matter if Lovecraft was "a man of his time" (which is contentious, as Sanford attests), it is immoral to excuse racism for any reason.

I agree.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1048141So by that logic, vampires are rapists.

Well, yeah.

That's what's so crazy: It's acceptable to play a blood sucking rapist with consent violating powers and impulse control issues who preys on the innocent and might accidentally murder you at a moment's notice.

But god forbid they're a bigot.

I'm also disturbed by Ken Hite's 180 from "all vampires are rapists" to "empowering undead predator". Seems a paycheck was all it took to change his mind.

Quote from: S'mon;1048163I don't think Lovecraft was a bad person. But he was at least borderline mentally ill. He was literally, medically, xenophobic.

Maybe, but there comes a point where he needs to be held accountable for his actions regardless.

I think many of the loudest SJWs are mentally ill (or worse exploiting the mentally ill) but that doesn't excuse the damage they cause.

Quote from: amacris;1048225As far as being an Ayn Rand libertarian, I am one; ACKS - well, all of the PCs in ACKS would have been called looters & moochers by Ayn Rand. She didn't think much of conquerors and kings. "Entrepreneur Executive Boss" would be more her taste.

ACKS is a fantasy game inspired by the hero's journey of fictional protagonists like Conan and Aragorn, or real-world protagonists like Aurelian or Alexander.  I don't worry about how it ties into contemporary political norms anymore than I worry about who Scipio and Hannibal would have voted for in 2016. I just enjoy imagining a world where magic is real, chaos and evil threaten civilization, and heroes must rise and save the realm through daring, cunning, and skill.

So the game you wrote and enjoy playing is outright antithetical to the political values you hold in real life.

I'm the same way. So are most gamers I know.

Quote from: JeremyR;1048239I think many people don't seem to understand is that many on the left, truly believe that everyone on the right are literal Nazis.

Which includes any leftists who are slightly more to the right. Especially them.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1048282I do find it interesting that someone was saying nothing in Vampire the Requiem (the other vampire game) allowed you to play vampire Nazis. Then someone posted a list of things that did just that, including a whole sub-faction of one of the major groups (of player characters) that was pro-Neo Nazi (they're in the Carthians book, for anyone who cares).

Then, a day later, the person who brought that up is permabanned. (The person only had 1 post and looks like they registered just for that... but interesting how they not only banned the person, they deleted the person's comment.)

Wow.

It's nice to see they're selectively deleting posts for reasons other than doxxing though, as there's something I've been meaning to do...

Quote from: DavetheLost;104838945 pages of now locked thread at TBP and this is the gist of it.  A dice example of "1,4,8,8", a couple of dubious NPCs in early playtest materials, and a statement that demographically 1 in 4 Swedish purchasers of V5 will be in favor of deporting immigrants,

Also "Blood and Souls", which is a quote from Elric of Melnibone. You know, the guy who White Wolf is named after.

Seriously, I'm surprised they weren't attacked for having 'white' in the company name.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1048516Brushing off other people's claims of harassment as "fictitious and unsubstantiated" in the same breath as claiming to be a victim of a harassment campaign themselves is especially great.

Funny how they can't seem to stick to their own principles.

Quote from: S'mon;1048753"Naming me is a clear attempt to get even by encouraging others to harass me"

Setting the incitement bar pretty low now, eh.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that was his intent, as he didn't name her in his initial flounce, yet included it later.

But Anna also claims she hasn't received any harassment due to this. So intention doesn't matter?

Quote from: NYTFLYR;1048789"Me: Cool. Are you open to some strongly worded criticism? Because here are the mental health consequences I'm personally already suffering, and here are the harms that I've been made aware of."

Mental Health Consequences?!? How does she manage to even survive in the real world?!?

Quote from: rgalex;1048808The thing is, she wasn't always like this.  I knew Anna back in our college days.  Her husband was part of my gaming circle of friends.  We've gamed together, we've been to friends weddings together, etc.  She was fine back then, maybe a little uptight, but cool to hang out with.  

Now though?  Now she's a woman-appearing-person.  I read her blog over the years and it was like watching a train wreck happen in real-time.  People compare 4th wave feminism to cancer.  Seeing Anna change over the years, yeah... it's kinda like that.

That's sad and terrifying.

Quote from: jeff37923;1048873And it just keeps getting more fucked up.

So a bunch of gamers asked a publisher to disavow the groups they oppose, but not violence, racism, sexism, harassment, or doxxing. That's because they're not actually against those concepts when it comes to what they consider acceptable targets, which is the whole problem.

White Wolf is done though, because no matter how many times they denounce Nazis it will never be enough. At least those with an honest interest in social justice are starting to clue into the fact that the radical elements tied to their movements are a liability.

Social justice is a good thing.

I just don't see you how you'd ever expect that in a game where you play monsters who exist by drinking the blood of the living - yes, even if they feel bad about it afterwards - and where you can only level up by taking down more powerful vampires, but the whole vampire system prohibits that. It's like a monster parable of exploitative capitalism, or something. If you want social justice, play a vampire hunter.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1049012Social justice is a good thing.

I just don't see you how you'd ever expect that in a game where you play monsters who exist by drinking the blood of the living - yes, even if they feel bad about it afterwards - and where you can only level up by taking down more powerful vampires, but the whole vampire system prohibits that. It's like a monster parable of exploitative capitalism, or something. If you want social justice, play a vampire hunter.

Can you define social justice for me?

Quote from: Lurtch;1049014Can you define social justice for me?

Is it when you get a closed-minded social group to form a mob and then go out seeking to force what you've collectively decided is justice upon others?

Quote from: Lurtch;1049014Can you define social justice for me?

There are different levels depending on where your country is. For example, in Iraq it'd be, "How about we don't machinegun people into ditches?" And in my country in the Northern Territory there are youths in juvenile detention facilities, a recent report showed that the percentage of those in detention who were indigenous was... 100%. So for the Northern Territory, "social justice" would start with "how about we don't lock up everyone with dark skin just for the sheer hell of it? And how about we lock up a few of the misbehaving white kids, too?" And here down in Melbourne, well considering the wealth of the state, maybe we shouldn't have people sleeping on the streets; among the chronically homeless here, mostly it's the mentally ill who are broken enough that it ruins their lives, but not so broken that they might kill themselves or others tomorrow (the usual threshold to get them committed).  

Different places have different issues. It's all about improving from wherever you are. I realise that in the United States the dominant strain of thought is to just let people die in the street, and if the end result of the free market is having to get into a bare-knuckled steel cage death match to get a job, then all is right and good with the world - but I'd rather live in a civilised country.

But again, I can't see what this has to do with a game where you play a guy who exists by drinking the blood of the living. We're not some crazy Scandanavians playing We All Had Names and engaging in angsty thespy agonising over death and suffering. As the sig says:

"Don't let yourself get too worried about all this talk about roleplaying [...] the ultimate object of all this is for everyone to have fun, not to recreate some form of high dramatic art." - Dungeoneer

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1049009Maybe, but there comes a point where he needs to be held accountable for his actions regardless.

HPL's actions? What are you talking about? Just his writing?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1049029There are different levels depending on where your country is. For example, in Iraq it'd be, "How about we don't machinegun people into ditches?" And in my country in the Northern Territory there are youths in juvenile detention facilities, a recent report showed that the percentage of those in detention who were indigenous was... 100%. So for the Northern Territory, "social justice" would start with "how about we don't lock up everyone with dark skin just for the sheer hell of it? And how about we lock up a few of the misbehaving white kids, too?" And here down in Melbourne, well considering the wealth of the state, maybe we shouldn't have people sleeping on the streets; among the chronically homeless here, mostly it's the mentally ill who are broken enough that it ruins their lives, but not so broken that they might kill themselves or others tomorrow (the usual threshold to get them committed).  

Wow, Australia sounds more fucked up than America could ever hope to be!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1049012If you want social justice, play a vampire hunter.

But it's only a game... I like playing vampires with no morals.