Quote from: Christopher Brady;1047470Random chance works, who knew?  I've seen it happen too, I've also seen players look at their stats and wonder why they bother, because another player gets to do it all, because random chance allows them to.  

You're utterly ridiculous. The difference between a character with an 18 or two and a character with no stats above +0 is literally 3 points of difference. Which become less and less significant as characters go up in level.

There is no one short of a narcissistic self-absorbed idiot who would think their character is 'useless' compared to another character because of that difference.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1047477You're utterly ridiculous. The difference between a character with an 18 or two and a character with no stats above +0 is literally 3 points of difference. Which become less and less significant as characters go up in level.

Have you ever played an older edition?  Or only YOUR 'edition', cuz a 5% increase, especially 10-15% chance is a big jump in success.  Especially on a d20.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1047477There is no one short of a narcissistic self-absorbed idiot who would think their character is 'useless' compared to another character because of that difference.

If you have to resort to insults, rather than refuting my point with valid evidence...  I've proven my point.

Can I be Bundt Cake? Or Deathcake Luchador? :cool:

Quote from: AsenRG;1047476Then why did you say outright that I am not "us[ing] coherent arguments to refute people, [but] pointless name-calling"?

Because it was the name calling I was referencing. Yes, you had argumentation. I would prefer the name calling go away, if for no other reason than it seems to (in his own mind) validate him.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1047478If you have to resort to insults, rather than refuting my point with valid evidence...  I've proven my point.

See? Like that. Although you know what, never mind. I don't know why I think being fairer to him about mean names will change anything.

Honestly, word to the wise, Chris -- and this is from exclusively a 'successfully convince anyone else' viewpoint--and opinion-- this is you doing you a disservice. Your audience decides if you have proven your point. Anyone I have ever seen who has declared it to be the case has been wrong. Usually very, very wrong.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1047470Random chance works, who knew?  I've seen it happen too, I've also seen players look at their stats and wonder why they bother, because another player gets to do it all, because random chance allows them to.  And the thing is, they're not angry at someone else, they're sad, frustrated, or just bored, because they don't get to do anything.  And looking back on the years of my gaming...  Boredom is the number one killers of random rolls for stats or backgrounds.  The fact that you're the odd man out, and sitting at the table, and flipping through the books because there's really nothing you can do to contribute, because the guy with the high stat is better and to choose someone else would just get the rest of the party killed.

I've played a number of random generated stats games, and only one remotely has issues as you describe. That would be AD&D where only 15-18 really do anything, with 18/xx Strength being the primary culprit, followed by Con but those really only apply to fighters. Most games will say right up front that a player rolling up truly sad stats should be allowed to roll again. Even with AD&D where stats admittedly could be an issue, it really never seemed to be much of one.

I am a fan of several point buy systems, and the lack of randomization does not eliminate the problem of some PCs being more useful than others. Some people are just better at min / maxing and gaming the system whether randomly rolled or total control of the design. Players who are going to pout because they are not the best of the best of the best are always going to be an issue.  

Quote from: Opaopajr;1047517Can I be Bundt Cake? Or Deathcake Luchador? :cool:

I vote for Deathcake, that sounds pretty serious.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1047522Honestly, word to the wise, Chris -- and this is from exclusively a 'successfully convince anyone else' viewpoint--and opinion-- this is you doing you a disservice. Your audience decides if you have proven your point. Anyone I have ever seen who has declared it to be the case has been wrong. Usually very, very wrong.

If someone has to resort to insults, rather than refuting a point, then they don't have anything left of say of value.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1047560I've played a number of random generated stats games, and only one remotely has issues as you describe. That would be AD&D where only 15-18 really do anything, with 18/xx Strength being the primary culprit, followed by Con but those really only apply to fighters. Most games will say right up front that a player rolling up truly sad stats should be allowed to roll again. Even with AD&D where stats admittedly could be an issue, it really never seemed to be much of one.

I am a fan of several point buy systems, and the lack of randomization does not eliminate the problem of some PCs being more useful than others. Some people are just better at min / maxing and gaming the system whether randomly rolled or total control of the design. Players who are going to pout because they are not the best of the best of the best are always going to be an issue.

I've seen it too many times, I've had it happen twice to myself in having the good stats, and once having the worst stats.  I found that my players and I were pretty bored when we didn't have a chance to participate because, logically, another player could do the same thing but much better chance to succeed.

Quote from: S'mon;10473981. AD&D "Everyone has the same chance to roll well"
2. 3e D&D "Everyone has the same opportunity to build a great PC"
3. 4e D&D "Everyone can make a character who contributes equally in combat"

I guess I want to see PCs who can all contribute meaningfully to whatever the game is about. I like OD&D rolling stats in order, but I want everyone to have a viable PC (which rolling in order usually accomplishes - roll-then-arrange creates big disparities though). Point buy or default array work too, but I'm probably least keen on build-a-bear systems like 3e/PF where success is primarily dependent on character optimisation before play begins. I also dislike 4e style efforts to iron out all differences. Currently I'm most liking OD&D-based Swords & Wizardry where the stat bonuses are pretty limited, I'm also happy with 5e using point buy/array, and 5e with roll-in-order swap-one also works if bad characters can be rerolled.

Wait, what's wrong with roll-then-arrange? Doesn't that give them a chance to smooth over issues?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1047574Wait, what's wrong with roll-then-arrange? Doesn't that give them a chance to smooth over issues?

Because it's not 'old school' enough for those who gate keep the OSR title.

Old school is not giving a fuck when others decline to validate/support your opinions.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1047574Wait, what's wrong with roll-then-arrange? Doesn't that give them a chance to smooth over issues?

It's just variable point buy - you get the samey PCs as with point buy, only some are much better than others.

Roll in order has much less of an issue with different rolls because the allocation is non-optimised, and you get IMO more interesting PCs with eg high STR + INT rather than high STR + CON.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1047581Because it's not 'old school' enough for those who gate keep the OSR title.

I don't really consider myself proper OSR Taleban like EOTB here, but the image of S'mon as a gate-keeping ogre maintaining the Purity of Gygax is quite enjoyable.

Quote from: S'mon;1047603I don't really consider myself proper OSR Taleban like EOTB here, but the image of S'mon as a gate-keeping ogre maintaining the Purity of Gygax is quite enjoyable.

There is no OSR tally-ban.  Just some guys who have strong opinions/personal preferences - different story.  

I don't want everyone to use the same tool for different stuff, and for one, am glad for games that attract people out of TSR editions of D&D into games more suited to them, rather than agitating against what TSR D&D editions are because they wish them to be something else.

Where other people want the biggest tent possible, I'm all for smaller tents from sea to shining sea.

I can think something absolutely sucks and simultaneously thank the sweet lord it exists, so that I don't have some pouting player blowing tears over a level drain.

Likewise, certain gamers can be ever thankful that they won't get an asshole DM like me because I won't run the systems they like.

Win-win.

My Lion & Dragon group today had a really good laugh at this notion that characters without high stats or high hit points are just useless and can't be fun to play at all.

They were all playing tonight with their backup characters, all of which had between 1-3 hit points at level 0 when they started, and now have between 4-6 hp at level 2.  They were in an adventure today where they were going in blind against a significantly stronger group of opponents (frogmen) and yet they all got out alive and had a great time.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1047522Because it was the name calling I was referencing. Yes, you had argumentation. I would prefer the name calling go away, if for no other reason than it seems to (in his own mind) validate him.

Man, there was a more innocent, calmer time when I'd have agreed with you...
Today? Today I just think if it's not the name-calling, he'd come up with another reason why he's right. It doesn't matter, so I'm fine giving Cupcake all the reasons an easy out...
Besides, if you think Cupcake equals name-calling, you've never heard me when I'm angry:D!

QuoteSee? Like that.

Yeah, now I see. Sorry, I'm not going to thank you for that:p!

QuoteAlthough you know what, never mind. I don't know why I think being fairer to him about mean names will change anything.

Precisely my thoughts.

Quote from: EOTB;1047592Old school is not giving a fuck when others decline to validate/support your opinions.

Wow, I'd never realised how old-school I really am:D!
And I don't mean just games, either...

Quote from: EOTB;1047611There is no OSR tally-ban.  Just some guys who have strong opinions/personal preferences - different story.  

I don't want everyone to use the same tool for different stuff, and for one, am glad for games that attract people out of TSR editions of D&D into games more suited to them, rather than agitating against what TSR D&D editions are because they wish them to be something else.

Where other people want the biggest tent possible, I'm all for smaller tents from sea to shining sea.

I can think something absolutely sucks and simultaneously thank the sweet lord it exists, so that I don't have some pouting player blowing tears over a level drain.

Likewise, certain gamers can be ever thankful that they won't get an asshole DM like me because I won't run the systems they like.

Win-win.

Likewise;).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1047652My Lion & Dragon group today had a really good laugh at this notion that characters without high stats or high hit points are just useless and can't be fun to play at all.

Yeah, my group also had a field day when I told them that. They also made some uncharitable assumptions about the kind of games the GM is running.
Then I told them the guy who said them was the GM.
I'm not going to repeat their conclusions, because that would name-calling;)!